[IntinyBut]

Like Abortion and gay marriage?? Most Churches in the US have official positions, for example the Catholic church is pro-life and against gay marriage. The Episcopalian church is pro-"choice" and pro-gay marriage. I have not seen an official Orthodox position

[ButKnillinoi]

An official declaration of the Orthodox Church in America on homosexuality can be found here: On Marriage, Family, Sexuality, and the Sanctity of Life.

An extensive discussion on abortion and the Church can be found here: An Orthodox View of Abortion (Amicus Curiae brief to the US Supreme Court). Not sure how you can get much more official than that.

Herman the unofficial Pooh

[biannaruh]

The Russian Orthodox Church issued this document as part of its synodal conference in 2000. Here is a link to this document, which addresses many "modern" concerns:

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

It would be safe to say that any official or pastoral advice in this document would also be compatible with the positions of the other Orthodox churches (Greek, Serbian, Ukrainian, Romanian, etc).

Another important point to be made is that the answers to many questions such as homosexual marriage can be found in the hymns, prayers and services of the Orthodox Church, which are the core and essence of what the Church proclaims and teaches. If you were to examine the text of the marriage service, which, as does so much of Orthodox hymnography, draws heavily from scripture, it becomes rapidly obvious that marriage can only be properly conducted between a man and a woman.

Link to the Orthodox betrothal and wedding service:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/betrotha.htm
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/crowning.htm

[immoceefe]

One of the problems with things like marriage is that it is something that is state sanctioned, state controlled. So you have to make the distinction between the Church's role and the state's role, and as long as those are closely intertwined there will be conflict. The Church can make a pronouncement that same sex marriage is damaging to all of the parties involved, including the eventual children who will be adopted, damaging to society, against God's will and intention at creation and so on, but it will eventually be ruled a hate crime and the Church will be sanctioned for it, e.g. losing its tax deductable status. At some point the Church will be required to change its own rites to include same sex marriages, and at that point, the Church is going to have to decide what it is, the true Church, the true faith, willing to suffer persecution, or just another sociological phenomenon.

This is the direction we are headed, sooner rather than later and the Church is quite unprepared to deal with this type of problem. It has to do with the lack of discernment of demonic forces at work at large, or at least a cowardice in terms of addressing them. In a sense, the Church does not care what people do outside of its body. Historically, and for sound theological reasons, it has been more concerned, almost exclusively concerned with its own purity vs. the purity of society at large, and just assumes that the society at large is following the ways of the world and is lost. At some point I hope that we will return to this norm. It is not that society's sins cannot or should not be addressed, but preferably in terms of the threats they pose to us. We cannot save society from itself, especially when it is engaged in a massive murder/suicide pact. And if we focus on fixing society's sins, we do so only at the risk of avoiding our own. How many Orthodox faithful have had abortions? How many Orthodox faithful have homosexual tendencies, or other sexual or immoral compulsions that require healing? By addressing these things as society's problem, we avoid looking close to home.

[vipBrooriErok]

I think that, to the Church, the state's involvement in marriage is irrelevant. Strictly speaking, those married or divorced only through the state apparatus are neither married nor divorced, according to the Church. A marriage between two persons of the same sex or three or humans and animals would be impossible. It invalidates itself. I remember a case in Russia where, for a bribe, an unfortunate priest did a wedding service for two men. He was defrocked after that. And the church in which it took place was burned down and bulldozed. Everyone laments over the church, but they forget the seriousness of blasphemy.

[IntinyBut]

I think that, to the Church, the state's involvement in marriage is irrelevant. .

Unfortunately it is not irrelevant. First of all, the state can try to force the Church to rent church space for marriage ceremonies if same-sex marriage is state law. It already happened in Canada where a gay couple sued to force a church to rent out its space to them. As long as there are anti-sexual-orientation-discrimination laws and laws that allow same-sex marriage, people who refuse to rent space for such "ceremonies" are liable. Second, adoptions: in Massachusetts the Catholic Charities decided to shut-down their adoption agency because the State was forcing them to give babies to gay couples for adoption. Third, people are influenced by the society at large and if gay marriage is allowed by the state, then more young people are likely to experiment with the gay lifestyle.

So the Church does not operate in a vacuum. I believe that the Orthodox Church has a responsibility to be active in politics the same way the Catholic Church and many Protestant sects are.

[limpoporanique]

As long as there are anti-sexual-orientation-discrimination laws and laws that allow same-sex marriage, people who refuse to rent space for such "ceremonies" are liable. Not in Canada where 'religious rights' are enshrined in our constitution. eg a church, synagogue, or mosque could not be successfully brought before a court for refusing to perform a service that goes against their principles. This is different though for those institutions which operate in the public sphere. Also I could be held liable if I urge on a public platform hatred, intolerance, persecution against certain groups of people.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[jeaccatty]

Unfortunately it is not irrelevant. First of all, the state can try to force the Church to rent church space for marriage ceremonies if same-sex marriage is state law.

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know all the legal delicacies, however, in general, the only way the state could force a church to rent out its sanctuary to outsiders is if the church had already set a precedent for doing this. Some (heterodox) churches will rent out their sanctuary space for concerts (they are more auditoriums than sanctuary - the acoustics are usually good and there is lots of already installed seating, i.e. pews, etc). If you set a precedent for renting out the space to outside groups for secular or even quasi religious events, then indeed the state might have a lever in the non-discrimination laws. There would be ways around this - like incorporating the guidelines for such rentals into the corporate bylaws which set out the limitations of the corporate body to allow such rentals - however, if you rent your space out already, it becomes a precedent and opens the door. OTOH, if you never rent out your sanctuary for any non-liturgical function then there is no precedent and you simply refuse on the basis that the space is not available for rent. Just because someone wants to rent the space for some purpose does not mean that they can - it has to be space that is already determined to be available for rent (advertised as such, or as mentioned by precedent).

When one is citing such cases that seem a bit beyond the usual expectation, it is always important to gather all the information so that you know what really happened.

Fr David Moser

[hotelhyatt]

In England we have the Equality Act 2006 which makes it unlawful to (amongst many other things) refuse goods and services on the grounds of sexual orientation. Very recently, a Christian woman, a Mrs Wilkinson, who runs a bed and breakfast business at her home turned away a male homosexual couple who had booked a room with a double bed (Mrs Wilkinson not knowing when one of the men made the booking that it was for a male homosexual couple). Mrs Wilkinson has been reported to the police, and the outcome is awaited.

Orthodox Christians could well find themselves in such a dilemma (assuming there is a dilemma). Suppose you are in Mrs Wilkinson's position; or, for example, you run a printing business, you receive an order to print leaflets or posters which promote homosexual activity. As I understand it, aiding others to sin is a way of participating in their sin; would providing a double bed to a homosexual couple (whether or not in the course of one's business) be a way of sinning? I ask the question: should you as an Orthodox Christian act as Mrs Wilkinson did, or, in the example posed, ought you to refuse the order, knowing, in both instances, that you will be acting unlawfully?

[IntinyBut]

Dear Fr. Moser,

I agree, I had in mind cases where churches were sued for space that they had previously rented out. Orthodox churches in the US routinely rent out space (not the sanctuary, but within the church building) for events. If same-sex marriage becomes legal in the US, those Orthodox churches will be forced to rent out space within their premises.

A far worse example in my mind is the case where health-care professionals might be forced to perform abortions (it can be part of their "job" in a nationalized health care system) or religious adoptions agencies (don't know if the Orthodox church is involved in adoptions) that have been forced to give babies to gay couples.

My overall point is that we can not pretend that the secular laws regarding marriage and abortion do not affect the church and the Christian believers.

[hotelhyatt]

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know all the legal delicacies, however, in general, the only way the state could force a church to rent out its sanctuary to outsiders is if the church had already set a precedent for doing this. Some (heterodox) churches will rent out their sanctuary space for concerts (they are more auditoriums than sanctuary - the acoustics are usually good and there is lots of already installed seating, i.e. pews, etc). If you set a precedent for renting out the space to outside groups for secular or even quasi religious events, then indeed the state might have a lever in the non-discrimination laws. There would be ways around this - like incorporating the guidelines for such rentals into the corporate bylaws which set out the limitations of the corporate body to allow such rentals - however, if you rent your space out already, it becomes a precedent and opens the door. OTOH, if you never rent out your sanctuary for any non-liturgical function then there is no precedent and you simply refuse on the basis that the space is not available for rent. Just because someone wants to rent the space for some purpose does not mean that they can - it has to be space that is already determined to be available for rent (advertised as such, or as mentioned by precedent).

When one is citing such cases that seem a bit beyond the usual expectation, it is always important to gather all the information so that you know what really happened.

Fr David Moser

It is no use speculating without knowing the relevant legislation.

[vipBrooriErok]

If same-sex marriage becomes legal in the US, those Orthodox churches will be forced to rent out space within their premises.

This is a stretch of logic, Angelos. There is not currently any law allowing the state to force churches to rent to anyone, especially if, as has been stated, a church does not have such a precedent or policy. I'm not sure where you're going with this rather fear-mongering line of argument, but the Orthodox Church's "policy" regarding homosexual "marriage" and infanticide, whether either is allowable or worthy of a blessing, is as it has always been--"over our dead bodies." I'm sure the state will, under influence of some unfortunate people, use some means to persecute the Church in a more overt way, but when that happens, I do not think that our lack of highly-organized involvement in worldly politics is going to lead us to sin, if we have been fighting all along against the covert persecution of the world and the devil. Protesting is certainly no substitute for spiritual warfare in one's own soul and keeping the commandments of Christ, and it is oftentimes a poor supplement, for it has a spirit about it which riles people up and takes away their peace. For myself, I am not going to become worried over that which might happen. Only God knows what might happen. He has told us some of that, and it will be far worse.

[soonahonsefalh]

i'm an Orthodox Christian and have been for 4 years and I'm gay. There is a lot of misinformation that is being thrown around that I think it borders around gossiping and unlogical suggestions.

"One must not condemn anyone, even the most wretched sinner." St. Nikon of Optina

"You must love every man, seeing in him the image of God, disregarding his vices. You must not dismiss people with coldness." St. Nikon of Optina

"A [person's] greatest success is to see and acknowledge that he is a sinner." St. Ignaty

"If the saints accused or convicted those who were living in sin or irreligion, they did so at the command of God, as their duty, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not at the instigation of their passions..."- St. Ignaty

"It is essential for you to see the infirmity of your knowledge and intellect, and the weakness of your will." St. Ignaty

"When you begin to realize that you have nothing and know nothing, then you will become rich in the Lord through practice of the virtues and spiritual knowledge." St. Theognostos

[hotelhyatt]

All these sayings are true. No individual has the right to judge - there is only one Judge. We are all sinners. But we have to know that we are sinners. There cannot be an expectation that sin be condoned or accepted. There is a difference between a person who struggles with homosexuality on the one hand, and one who accepts it on the other (and expects other Christians to accept it in him or her). The only sexual activity the Church accepts is normal sexual activity between a man and a woman who have been married in the Church and even then not at certain times. Fornication, adultery, homosexual sex, and self-abuse are all sins. The Church is compassionate and sensitive to those who are subject to such passions and who struggle with them, even if often unsuccessfully. The same compassion and sensitivity needs to be shown to one who suffers any driving passion: one thinks of Dostoyevsky's passion for gambling. But if a person indulges a passion which the Church says is a sin and he is unrepentant of it, what can be said? Only that he is then not in good order with the Church and not in communion with it.

[Daruhuw]

...I remember a case in Russia where, for a bribe, an unfortunate priest did a wedding service for two men. He was defrocked after that. And the church in which it took place was burned down and bulldozed. Everyone laments over the church, but they forget the seriousness of blasphemy.

Forgive me, but I feel that it should be pointed out that the building in question was bulldozed, not because of a gay-wedding performed in it, but because it was structurally unsound and was already scheduled for demolition.

As much as our temples are holy ground, I suspect that if we engaged on a policy of bulldozing every temple that someone committed a sin in, we'd likely have very few left. There are many ways of sinning grieviously with our minds while appearing sanctified on "the outside" after all.

But, I understand the sentiment that whatever qualifies as a LEGAL marriage in any country, does not necessarily impact on what qualifies as a CHRISTIAN marriage. It seems that some Protestant groups are having trouble distinguishing the two.

[Liabmeasez]

Forgive me, but I feel that it should be pointed out that the building in question was bulldozed, not because of a gay-wedding performed in it, but because it was structurally unsound and was already scheduled for demolition.

As much as our temples are holy ground, I suspect that if we engaged on a policy of bulldozing every temple that someone committed a sin in, we'd likely have very few left. There are many ways of sinning grieviously with our minds while appearing sanctified on "the outside" after all.

But, I understand the sentiment that whatever qualifies as a LEGAL marriage in any country, does not necessarily impact on what qualifies as a CHRISTIAN marriage. It seems that some Protestant groups are having trouble distinguishing the two.

Father, bless:

With regard to the latter, you can't really blame the Protestants-- their marriages aren't sacramental, so the state marriage is all that they have.

Yet I second the notion that we can't stay out of this discussion. When the state offers something called "marriage" on equal terms to homosexual and heterosexual couples, it is signalling something definite about homosexuality and heterosexuality to impressionable minds everywhere-- namely, that there is a moral equivalence between them, and that one is "just as good" as the other. Simply stating that "it's not really marriage, so it doesn't matter" seems to me to neglect the very real influence of government actions on shaping values and viewpoints. When Caeser speaks, people listen.

In Christ,
Evan

[Daruhuw]

Beloved in Christ Evan,

I'm not a priest (only a monk) so you don't have to ask for me to bless anything.

Your point is valid, but limited. The state's definition of marriage only impacts on Christian theology if one is under the impression that one is in a Christian country. Canada, the United States, Australia, Great Britain, etc., are NOT Christian countries. They may have been at one time, but they are no longer so.

In many Muslim countries, for example, a man may marry many wives. These are completely legal. However, in no way, shape, or form, are they Christian marriages. Nor are they necessarily legal in other countries. When a Muslim man with multiple wives comes to Canada, either temporarily or immigrates, the practice is that the first wife is considered the "legal" wife, with the others considered to be "girlfriends". That way, a country like Canada, that has laws against bigamy, can effectively turn a blind eye to a blatantly illegal practice.

Now, don't get me wrong! I'm not saying bigamy, or homosexual marriages are alright. Nor am I saying that we shouldn't voice our beliefs. I'm just saying that "Caesar" not understanding, or agreeing with us, is not that unusual, and we shouldn't get really bent out of shape over it.

Of course, I understand that the state, a.k.a. "Caesar", legalizing homosexual marriages can influence people who don't understand how the separation of Church and State works, but that can be countered fairly easily by education.

Now, if we could just ensure that the average Canadian, American, Briton, etc. were fairly intelligent and well educated...

[IntinyBut]

Dear Fr. Cyprian,

Are you suggesting that the attitude of the Orthodox Church towards the State and Federal laws (" Caesar") should be one of mild indifference? (re: I'm just saying that "Caesar" not understanding, or agreeing with us, is not that unusual, and we shouldn't get really bent out of shape over it.) If yes I completely disagree because that attitude violates the two major commandments:

In response to the question about the first of the commandments, Jesus says: "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." ...and without love of neighbor there's no love of God either ("whatever you did to the least of these, you did to me")

and by neighbor Jesus did not mean just the "Orthodox neighbor" (see parable of the good Samaritan) but all th epeople on earth. So lets get abortions for example. Sure a good Christian (of any denomination) would not abort her unborn child, but what about all the unborn children murdered every year thanks to the Federal laws of this country?? Shouldn't we "bent out of shape over" them? I think we should.

As fas as homosexual marriage is concerned, the more society promotes it as an OK (or even "cool") lifestyle, through its laws, the less likely are people with homosexual tendencies to try to live by the Church's commandments, shouldn't we care about these people?

[hotelhyatt]

But when Caesar and faith collide - see my post No. 9 - what are we to do? Any responses to my question there put?

[soonahonsefalh]

It is not necessarilly "marriage" that us gays are after. It is the recognition from our family, friends, and Caesar. Gays are not out to force any Church to recognize their marriage and Churches reserve that right to hold firm to their beliefs. And the gov't can't force a Church to recognize a union b/w two people that they don't see as equal. From the news I've come across and the stories that I've read from friends and certain blogs is that these unions are taking events in civil places, not in Churches. And if they are taking place in a Church then it's only because the Church recognizes them. Which so far is the Episcopal Church. That's it. People need to stop making noise where there is no need to shout and throw up arms in defense of morality or Church beliefs. It is a civil issue that gays are taking their issue up with, not with Churches!

But surely as we Orthodox know we don't validate marriages outside of the Church as being sacramental. And so if two people of the same-sex "marry" so what, we as Orthodox should shrug our shoulders and say "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."

-Jason H. a wretched sinner.