[arerrurrY]

NOTE: Posts # 1-15 in this thread have been moved here from their original location in the Pacificsm and Just War thread, where they were tangental to the topic. -Moderators

A society lady remarked to the Duke of Wellington that a victory must be a great thing. 'Believe me, madam, it is the worst thing in the world, apart from a defeat', replied the Duke. Elder Sophrony said that during WWII, he prayed for the less evil side to win.

Can you post where Elder Sophrony said this what you say here Andreas? And who was the less evil side please do tell. As far as I know a war is a war. All people being killed are human beings and children of God! If you did not know -because it is not written maybe - there are places in Germany which were bombed, where there were only children and women!!! Ah and relics of Orthodox saints too - like in Würzburg - since they bombed women, children, the hospitals and the churches because there were no men in that town at the time of its destruction. Not to mention other places. Just because a Hitler came from Austria and decided to do what he did, it does not mean Germans are the more evil side. Ah and the numbers Stalin killed in the war... and they were Russians (besides other nationalities). Check the books please.

I am glad Herman said soemthing because I never heard also about an enemy of the church that we need to kill!!! Christ commanded us to love our enemies. Many of us have close friends, or friends and we also have people in the extended families or in the close ones who are Muslim. Now according to that we must get guns and kill them???

Those being said: Elder Paisios of Mount Athos also was recruited in the army and he said it is a duty for one's country to participate in army duty. However he said that for himself he prayed to God to never have to shoot a bullet. I have to find the exact saying and I will post it.

[arerrurrY]

If it's not written, and nobody knows about it, how do you know that it happened?

You are twisting and adding to what I have said. I did NOT say it is not written AND nobody knows about it. I said that it is not written maybe (and that 'maybe' meant in the books of the person to whom I was responding.) And of course people know about it because history is there. There are documentaries, etc. We all hear about how evil one side is but to be fair is to hear both sides of the story. Oh, and btw I said Wurzburg and not Dresden. And Wurzburg had only children, women, hospital and churches with relics of Saints (I believe the RCs recognize them too since the churches there were RC at that time anyway, and since those saints are before the Great Schism) at that time and no industry, or military importance.

Are you saying the heresy of Islam is not an enemy of the Church?

Fr. Matthew and Herman have already responded so well to this. Those things being said, I would like to add a story about Nestorius.

He was such a devout Christian (before becoming heretic) and very zealous and fervent. He did the out most to please and love God, however he was very harsh to the Arian heretics. He would order their churches burned and he persecuted them very harshly. He would not show pity, or love about these people at all but he became their worst nightmare because they were heretics. Notice that the Fathers of the Church have never taken such a route, although they have spoken and written and condemned heresies and urged their flocks to be steadfast in their Faith and Truth, they did not persecute people for embracing those heresies. So when God saw that Nestorius was so harsh and merciless towards his fellow human beings, He allowed Nestorius to fall in the same sin for which he had persecuted so many. So Nestorius created the other schism in our Church and fell into a great heresy himself.

Abba Pambo has said "Go and have pity on all, for through pity, one finds freedom of speech before God."

[Liabmeasez]

You are twisting and adding to what I have said. I did NOT say it is not written AND nobody knows about it. I said that it is not written maybe (and that 'maybe' meant in the books of the person to whom I was responding.) And of course people know about it because history is there. There are documentaries, etc. We all hear about how evil one side is but to be fair is to hear both sides of the story.

All people that kill children -the most innocent creatures in the world- are evil, they are Herods. It does not matter which ones they are. It is like killing angels, and we can't say that one angel killed is less precious, or more precious than the other

Which books? What documentaries? Just saying. To be fair is to be objective.

I absolutely agree that killing children deliberately is evil. But, if killing enemies in war and killiing children on the street is equally "murder," I'm simply struggling to see how we can ever wage war.

I intend to do my homework on this. But it boggles my mind that there's a moral equivalence being asserted in the above context.

[arerrurrY]

QUOTE]

Which books? What documentaries? Just saying. To be fair is to be objective.

Here you have veeeery minimal info about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II
The raid destroyed the episcopal palace, the historic fortress and the major churches; the baroque city center was irrecoverably damaged, and the Würzburg Residence was badly damaged. As you can see the palace of the bishop was very threatening. And soooo many bombs were thrown there.
And you will get more info if you speak languages other than English. I hope you are not of the opinion that a war is a good thing.

[mensforyouthis]

[QUOTE=Nina;80634]Can you post where Elder Sophrony said this what you say here Andreas? And who was the less evil side please do tell.

This is from Rosemary Edmonds' introduction to 'His Life is Mine' by Archimandrite Sophrony. At page 10, she writes of the Elder that during WWII, he 'would spend the night hours prone on the earth floor of his cave [on Mount Athos], imploring God to intervene in the crazy blood-bath. He prayed for those who were being killed, for those who were killing, for all in torment. And he prayed that God would not allow the more evil side to win.' Since I do not think Elder Sophrony would have prayed for the Germans, Japanese and their allies to win, 'the more evil side' was the fascists.

[arerrurrY]

This is from Rosemary Edmonds' introduction to 'His Life is Mine' by Archimandrite Sophrony. At page 10, she writes of the Elder that during WWII, he 'would spend the night hours prone on the earth floor of his cave [on Mount Athos], imploring God to intervene in the crazy blood-bath. He prayed for those who were being killed, for those who were killing, for all in torment. And he prayed that God would not allow the more evil side to win.' Since I do not think Elder Sophrony would have prayed for the Germans, Japanese and their allies to win, 'the more evil side' was the fascists.

Just because someone writes it, it does not mean that Elder Sophrony has said that phrase (it seems like a game children play "broken telephone"). Our saints are not ignorant to call people 'evil' despite people's immense sins, and Fathers always reiterate that evil is the Evil One. Plus I am sure that Elder Sophrony would not call a lesser evil, Stalin, who would go on afterward to enslave an entire nation to communism and try to destroy Orthodoxy. How less evil is that?

[mensforyouthis]

Just because someone writes it, it does not mean that Elder Sophrony has said that phrase (it seems like a game children play "broken telephone"). Our saints are not ignorant to call people 'evil' despite people's immense sins, and Fathers always reiterate that evil is the Evil One. Plus I am sure that Elder Sophrony would not call a lesser evil, Stalin, who would go on afterward to enslave an entire nation to communism and try to destroy Orthodoxy. How less evil is that? I'm not sure what to say, really. Rosemary Edmonds knew Elder Sophrony very well and spoke absolutely fluent Russian; I'd be surprised if she did not report what he said to her accurately. Obviously, I would not want at all to put in any plea of mitigation for Stalin but there was a softer line towards the Church from 1945 until his death in 1953. Khrushchev revived severe persecution. Demonic as the Soviet system was, and though dissidents were still cruelly treated, the scale of oppression was much less in the decades after WWII than it had been before, and the majority of Soviet citizens lived reasonable lives after WWII if what I know from my wife's family and their friends is anything to go by. (That said, very few Russians I know or know of regret the passing of the Soviet Union.) Had the Nazis won, then since they regarded the Russians as 'untermenschen', things would surely have been far worse.

[arerrurrY]

I'm not sure what to say, really. Rosemary Edmonds knew Elder Sophrony very well and spoke absolutely fluent Russian; I'd be surprised if she did not report what he said to her accurately. Obviously, I would not want at all to put in any plea of mitigation for Stalin but there was a softer line towards the Church from 1945 until his death in 1953. Khrushchev revived severe persecution. Demonic as the Soviet system was, and though dissidents were still cruelly treated, the scale of oppression was much less in the decades after WWII than it had been before, and the majority of Soviet citizens lived reasonable lives after WWII if what I know from my wife's family and their friends is anything to go by. (That said, very few Russians I know or know of regret the passing of the Soviet Union.) Had the Nazis won, then since they regarded the Russians as 'untermenschen', things would surely have been far worse.

We do not believe in the infallibility of one single person.
Andreas you can not compare inhuman conditions and say one is better or worse. Plus you can't mention "reasonable lives" during communism of your wife and family since you have told me that they were part of the elite; and how the communist elite lived is not the standard how people lived in communism. Yes of course many who lost their privileges, will have nostalgia for the communist regime. And please stop comparing Nazis with Communists and trying to depict the latter as softer, because both are regimes, dictatorships, cruel, inhuman ... I know your wife has had an easy life in communism but just for the sake of those who suffered in communism just do not try to make it sound as communism was not a curse because of people's sins. You have really no idea what Stalin did, because he was a leader in the communist idea for the entire Eastern Block. You have really no idea what it means to live in communism (persecuted or not). You have no idea. Perhaps I should start a thread where we can enumerate and tell "the reasonable lives" in communism starting with the life of Father Arseny. Nazism and Communism (and other such regimes) are both evil and a shame for humanity.

[immoceefe]

An interesting sidebar to the Nazi invasion of Russia is that HItler could easily have gotten millions of volunteers from occupied territories to fight the Soviets. As it was, he got General Vlasov and about 400,000 volunteers, but not until 1943, and he never trusted them, using them largely for labor on the Atlantic Wall, and fighting in Yugoslavia. But Hitler did indeed consider the Slavs as inferior and treated them very badly, to the dismay of the regular army generals who could have used the help. Most of them would have been in Ukraine of course, but many of them would have been ethnic Russians who despised Stalin and the Soviet system. It's not hard to understand why, when you consider that Stalin deliberately starved many farmers to death, and ruled by terrorizing everyone down to the family level.

Also, it is not clear at all that Nazi occupation of Russia would have been worse for the Russians. Stalin sent more to the Gulag during and after the War than before. He probably shot about a million Russians who had had the misfortune of becoming POW's. Stalin had spies on every block in Russia. Hitler's totalitarianism toward his own people was extremely mild by comparison. In Cologne during the war there were only about five gestapo agents in the whole city. Also, Stalin's military methods were to use troops as canon fodder. I could go on and on.

Arguing who was worse, Hitler or Stalin is a fool's errand, of course. But the Soviets have always gotten a pass from Western historians and media types. Churchill famously said that he would make a pact with the Devil to defeat Hitler, which he proceeded to do. He also repatriated many Russians, many of whom committed suicide rather than go back. They knew exactly what they were facing...

These are just a few of the moral ambiguities involved in war.

[mensforyouthis]

I mostly go along with what Owen says. I did say that the Soviet system was demonic; it cost around 40 million deaths apart from the 20 million caused by WWII. But I am assured that the scale of oppression reduced after the early '50s and the camps were closed from the '60s on. Of course I don't know what it was like to live under communism or fascism and everyone is thankful that both have been got rid of in Europe.

[arerrurrY]

Obviously, I would not want at all to put in any plea of mitigation for Stalin but there was a softer line towards the Church from 1945 until his death in 1953. Khrushchev revived severe persecution.

But I am assured that the scale of oppression reduced after the early '50s and the camps were closed from the '60s on.

These are two contradictory things that are told to you at the same time, Andreas.

It is also to be noted that in the book about Father Arseny, we can see people who were Russians behaving very badly towards other Russians during the WWII and during Communism. For instance when the Germans were going towards Moscow and people were trying to evacuate from Moscow, in the story "Mother of God help us" where a lady with her 4 year daughter went through so much from her own country-people, and the suffering ignited in her the need to pray to the Theotokos (formerly she did not beleive much and made fun of the church), and then the Theotokos directed her to two God-fearing ladies (spiritual children of Father Arseny) who helped the poor soul who was so ill that would have died if she did not receive immediate medical care.

Or in another story where 3 girls from Moscow had to go find food in the countryside because of starvation during communism and Russian soldiers almost started raping them while on the train. But their spiritual father had given them blessings and icons for the trip and was praying for them while they were on the road. He also said that 'may the Mother of God and St. George help you' before they left. And really a man called Yuri (which is Russian for George) protected them since several of the soldiers had already started raping other women there. These women were so scared because they had heard how the Russian army raped women everywhere in Russia at that time and they kept praying to the Theotokos for help and deliverance.

It is all just so sad. But I highly recommend the book because in addition to depicting history as seen by pious people that lived in those times of war, unrest and totalitarianism, the book underlines the power of prayer and faith in God, even in the darkest abyss we humans may find ourselves at times.

[mensforyouthis]

Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
there was a softer line towards the Church from 1945 until his [Stalin's] death in 1953. Khrushchev revived severe persecution.

Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
the scale of oppression reduced after the early '50s and the camps were closed from the '60s on. What is historically inaccurate in these statements?

[arerrurrY]

Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
Obviously, I would not want at all to put in any plea of mitigation for Stalin but there was a softer line towards the Church from 1945 until his death in 1953. Khrushchev revived severe persecution.


Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
But I am assured that the scale of oppression reduced after the early '50s and the camps were closed from the '60s on. First, the book "Father Arseny" does not depict a "softer line [of oppression] from 1945 until 1953 (Stalin's death)" as you mentioned in the first statement.

Second, I did not single out these statements for their historical inaccuracy, but I said these statements above that were told to you, are contradictory. Because how can Khrushchev "revive severe persecution after 1953" and at the same time be that "the scale of oppression is reduced after the early 50s".

[mensforyouthis]

First, the book "Father Arseny" does not depict a "softer line [of oppression] from 1945 until 1953 (Stalin's death)" as you mentioned in the first statement.

Second, I did not single out these statements for their historical inaccuracy, but I said these statements above that were told to you, are contradictory. Because how can Khrushchev "revive severe persecution after 1953" and at the same time be that "the scale of oppression is reduced after the early 50s".

There is a difference between the general oppression of the population and the persecution of the Church. The Church did have a period of respite from persecution from 1945 to 1953. (Stalin bestowed honours on hierarchs who had raised morale during WWII. He also received Metropolitan Elias of Lebanon with great courtesy and presented him with an icon of the Kazan Mother of God which Stalin had ordered to be carried into battle in a number of engagements, including Stalingrad and Leningrad.) The scale of oppression of the population as a whole continued after 1945 but this decreased after 1953 and the camps were closed in the late 1960s. The persecution of the Church by Khrushchev as great as it had been before WWII. Whatever I mention about Stalin must not be read as any sort of sympathy for him - he was a cynical, murderous tyrant.

As to communism, it was not the same in Russia from the late 1950s until the late 1980s as it was in Albania. True, it was not healthy for one's career to be a Christian and dissidents were persecuted. But for the mass of the population, there were the highest standards of educational, health care, employment, cultural and other benefits, as well as a high sense of morality. This was true in other communist countries. I have a friend in the former Yugoslavia who lives in Banja Luka, Serbia. In the 1980s, he went on business to California. He was offered a good job there but turned it down because he and his family had such a good life in Serbia.

[arerrurrY]

There is a difference between the general oppression of the population and the persecution of the Church. The Church did have a period of respite from persecution from 1945 to 1953. (Stalin bestowed honours on hierarchs who had raised morale during WWII. He also received Metropolitan Elias of Lebanon with great courtesy and presented him with an icon of the Kazan Mother of God which Stalin had ordered to be carried into battle in a number of engagements, including Stalingrad and Leningrad.) The scale of oppression of the population as a whole continued after 1945 but this decreased after 1953 and the camps were closed in the late 1960s. The persecution of the Church by Khrushchev as great as it had been before WWII. Whatever I mention about Stalin must not be read as any sort of sympathy for him - he was a cynical, murderous tyrant.

There is no difference between "the general oppression of the population and the persecution of the Church" in the same country and in the same time. There is no difference for a believer. Many believers were closed in the mental institutions during communism in Russia, or were killed, or sent to prison camps.

Yes you are right that many people in Russia turned briefly to God during WWII, but then most abandoned Church again. However to mention that Stalin ordered an icon to be in a battle, is not a good deed but is even more accusing for him, since he closed his eyes to this miracle and to the protection of God during that horrid war. It is like St. Constantine the Great to use the vision he saw just for his personal/military interest and then "discard" God and persecute Christians afterwards even more.

As to communism, it was not the same in Russia from the late 1950s until the late 1980s as it was in Albania. True, it was not healthy for one's career to be a Christian and dissidents were persecuted. But for the mass of the population, there were the highest standards of educational, health care, employment, cultural and other benefits, as well as a high sense of morality. This was true in other communist countries. I have a friend in the former Yugoslavia who lives in Banja Luka, Serbia. In the 1980s, he went on business to California. He was offered a good job there but turned it down because he and his family had such a good life in Serbia. Ha ha ha Andreas you win! Communism was a blessing for Russia! Who knew? People lived so well. And a high "sense of morality"? Bravooo! What we can't achieve with so much Confession and Holy Communion, Sacraments and spiritual warfare, communism achieved it in the blink of the eye! Building the "new person" they called it. However note that this new person was disrobed by anything Godly and molded in the fear and terror of the communist party.

So you know now how people lived in Albania also under communism? Let me tell you: Albania had the same things (healthcare, high educational standards, and all the things you mention that were in Russia) and people who came from the communist elite (all its different echelons) were able to travel abroad for business, or pleasure. But the people who tell you about the "benefits" of living under communism never told you about living in suffocation? Can you understand the concept of lack of freedom? Do they ever tell you about the race for becoming the uberman (or at least as uber as the party would allow them)? Or do these people's consciences ever hurt? These are just the people who enjoyed the privileges and had their lives dictated by the communist party and now feel lost without the party telling them what to do and where to go. This is how many feel. Actually in West Germany they ridicule this nonsense nostalgia for the communist era people from the east have, by calling it Ostalgie instead of nostalgia (Ost - East in German).

It is amazing how actually Father Arseny describes these people quite metamorphosed by communism in Russia:

In a way this is natural. People have lived through too much, through too much difficulty. Everything was done to eradicate faith from the souls of the people. Conditions were such that it became necessary to think only about how to survive, to overcome the obstacles which had been created. Just look at the life which has now been created: radio, magazines, television, newspapers, cinemas and theater create a standardized way of thinking, the same for everyone. This leads to a person being unable to be alone with his own thoughts, to feel the presence of God.

The pace of today's life, so quick, and so constantly pressured, makes people think only according to how somebody wants them to. A person is never alone; even when he is sent to a sanatorium or rest home for a rest, there is always a definite rhythm and program to follow, everything is decided for you. People are fed, informed, and taught what someone else decided they need. Huge numbers of people are gathered together, but they are separated by the daily battle for life.

All this has affected even believers, brought them closer to the 'norm', made them indifferent. A prescribed way of thinking makes it difficult for a person to become a believer and makes it difficult for the believer to preserve his faith. But do remember, Christ's Church will live eternally even under these circumstances. Preserve your faith, fight for individuality of thought, pray more, read the Scriptures, and God will preserve you, He will not let you lose the clarity of your thoughts, He will not let you think like the faceless mass of indifferent and cold people.

[mensforyouthis]

My wife and her family (who, though they had a relatively privileged position in Soviet Russia, were not among the elite if by 'elite' we mean the very top of society) say that they prefer to have the freedom of thought, speech and worship they now have even though the circumstances of life in Russia are now considerably worse for them and a great many people than they were before the collapse of communism. They wanted and expected a western European style system to follow communism but got corruption and banditry. But anger at the current system for its failures does not automatically mean they have nostalgia for the past.

My wife did say something interesting yesterday evening in connection with all this. She said that when she and her family visited churches and monasteries during the 1980s, even though most had not yet then re-opened, there was a feeling of grace in them which is not there anymore. I had some experience of this. About five years ago, we went to Pereslavl-Zalesskiy. Just outside that town is a small convent. We went in and found it had just been given back to the Church and was being renovated. I remember how full of grace it was. Now when we go to churches and monasteries which have had no expense spared in their renovation, one does not feel any grace. We worry that, as I have mentioned elsewhere, there is 'too much St Joseph Volotsky' and 'too little St Nil Sorsky'. I can't speak for other former communist countries but one cannot help sensing in Russia that the Church is in some danger from excessive patronage.

[alexbookhyip]

"They wanted and expected a western European style system to follow communism but got corruption and banditry. But anger at the current system for its failures does not automatically mean they have nostalgia for the past."

Forgive me for nit-picking here, but this type of statement has begun to bother me more and more.
While it goes without saying that there is no small amount of corruption within the current Russian government(no different than America) , the popular opinion here in the west of it being a cold, godless,mafia controled quasi-dictatorship, is just simply not the case.
Russia may not have the same style of democracy as we here in the west, but it is precisely because of the theivery and corruption that went on(not to mention iterferance from western powers) after the collapse of communism that it has had to adapt.
If nothing else, the fact that the two men in the very highest position in the government(Medvedev and Putin)are both devout Orthodox Christians, is a tremendous step forward.

"...there was a feeling of grace in them which is not there anymore."

Also, forgive me once again for nit-pickery, but whether or not an individual church has grace doesnt seem like something that could be determined by one or two visits.
Why would the Holy Spirit favor a church that is negected or in disrepair, then abandon it once it has been restored?

[mensforyouthis]

[quote=Brendan Kulp;81839]"They wanted and expected a western European style system to follow communism but got corruption and banditry. But anger at the current system for its failures does not automatically mean they have nostalgia for the past."

Forgive me for nit-picking here, but this type of statement has begun to bother me more and more. Can you explain, please, in what way you are bothered by such a statement?

While it goes without saying that there is no small amount of corruption within the current Russian government(no different than America) Corruption is not limited to the government; it permeates every aspect of life, private and public, down to the bottom.

the popular opinion here in the west of it being a cold, godless,mafia controled quasi-dictatorship, is just simply not the case. It is not as simple as that; it is not godless, and the word 'cold' doesn't come to mind, but it is 'mafia-controlled' in a general way and the government shows little urge to improve the conditions of life for the majority of people. I wonder, though, Brendan, on what you base your assertions - have you stayed in Russia? Do you know people there?

Russia may not have the same style of democracy as we here in the west, but it is precisely because of the theivery and corruption that went on(not to mention iterferance from western powers) after the collapse of communism that it has had to adapt. 'that went on' - the past tense is inapt. What do you mean, 'has to had to adapt'?

If nothing else, the fact that the two men in the very highest position in the government(Medvedev and Putin)are both devout Orthodox Christians, is a tremendous step forward. It's certainly better than having atheists in charge but Russians don't see that this makes much difference to the way Russia is run. Yes, the Church now occupies a prominent position in the state but it is seen as being at a formal, official level rather as it was before the Revolution. Orthodoxy makes little difference to the majority of Russians.

"...there was a feeling of grace in them which is not there anymore."

Also, forgive me once again for nit-pickery, but Why would the Holy Spirit favor a church that is negected or in disrepair, then abandon it once it has been restored? In the late 80s and early 90s, there was a fresh atmosphere in the churches and monasteries and they and the clergy and monastics in them engaged with people. Now, with so much money having been put into them, they have acquired an air of, again, formality and 'officilism' which makes them feel more remote from the people.

whether or not an individual church has grace doesnt seem like something that could be determined by one or two visits. All this is not my assessment but that of Russians I know who live there and have experienced all this. Again, Brendan, I wonder upon what you base your assertions?

[alexbookhyip]

Andreas,

Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit on that.
It bothers me because its the sort of broad, agenda driven statement that Ive seen seen so often in the media lately, which focuses completely on the negatives of modern Russian while ignoring the many, many remarkable things in relation to the spiritual side of things that have been taking place since the end of the Soviet era.
Im not implying in any way of course though that there is anything behind the statements youve made.
While Ive never been to Russia, and therefore cannot provide any firsthand accounts myself, what Ive heard from Russians that do have first hand knowledge actually sounds very similar to what you've heard.
These are I feel(at least in most cases) very narrow views of a much greater picture.
I follow a number of Russian news sites(un official and official) and blogs,many of which tend to focus not so much on the grumbings of individuals, but on matters which are more relevant overall to Russian society as a whole.
We living here in the west, arent told about the miraculous sightings of crosses in the sky(witnessed by tens of thousands of people),the thousands of recent cases of Icons spontaneously renewing themselves, gushing mir, weeping, or healing afflictions.
I heard an account just the other day of an instance where a store which sells Icons(reproductions) and other church related items had 200 Icons simultaneously begin streaming mir, each having its own distintive smell. And that was just one such remarkable occurance.
That so many Churches and Monasteries are receiving an abundance of contributions would also seem to contradict the statement that:
"Corruption is not limited to the government; it permeates every aspect of life, private and public, down to the bottom."

Historically speaking, a society which is corrupt from top to bottom, is not typically one that puts much of a priority in maintaining its Churches.
I do understand where your coming from with this statement though. I have a sister who was adopted from Russia, and some of the stories Ive heard from her would certainly seem to back many of your statements.

"'that went on' - the past tense is inapt. What do you mean, 'has to had to adapt'?"

I meant this in the same sense that America has, for better or worse, had to adapt since 911. Theres always been(and always will be)corruption in high places,that is a given.
Russia now,unlike much of the 90's has a funtional governent, unlike the chaotic few years of near anarchy that followed the fall of communism. During those years elements of organized crime and corrupt officials took advantage of the power vacuum, and were able to go about their business without much or any goverment interferance. This is just not the case anymore. While these elements are still very much in existance, they no longer hold the same influence they did. Russia has been also dealing with the problem of interferance from western powers attempting to influence the media,elections and public opinion(usually all at once). We hear all about it every time a journalist or politician is censored or arrested in Russia, what we DONT hear are the actual reasons why(or if we do its stated in a dismissive way).
To acheive the level of control(however small)the government now has, it has had to resort to what most of us here in the west see as "totalitarian measures".

"It's certainly better than having atheists in charge but Russians don't see that this makes much difference to the way Russia is run. Yes, the Church now occupies a prominent position in the state but it is seen as being at a formal, official level rather as it was before the Revolution. Orthodoxy makes little difference to the majority of Russians."
I
f it is indeed the case that Orthodoxy makes little difference to the majority of Russians, Im guessing 70 years of persecution has played a bit more of a role in this than the post-Soviet government.
While the Orthodox Church actually became the official state church during the reign of Peter the Great, it was during these 70 or so years of communism that the church became such a formal, officially controlled department of the state, and not after. The issue of formality may still be somewhat the case, but based on what Ive heard and read about in Russia, the State no longer interfers in matters of the Church and vice versa. In fact the Church and State have been working closely together for years now to improve the moral and spiritual stadards of society(public schools now teach classes in Orthodox education).



"In the late 80s and early 90s, there was a fresh atmosphere in the churches and monasteries and they and the clergy and monastics in them engaged with people. Now, with so much money having been put into them, they have acquired an air of, again, formality and 'officilism' which makes them feel more remote from the people."
Once again, the church of Russia was an official church, dependant upon the government, both during, and long before the Soviet era.
If what you said above is actually a reality, I would think this would be more symptomatic of an oppressed population unaccustomed to living without fear.
However, I tend to think this is not the case, or at least not as prevailant as many would lead us to believe.
The fact that even Hollywood stlye big budget movies made in Russia are starting to include strong elements of Orthodoxy(watch "Admiral" for of good example of this), is in my opinion, a sign of the opposite occuring.

Ive written all this not to try to impose my will or opinions on anyone, and certainly not to offend. And while I may be unrealistically optimistic, there are(along with what Ive already mentioned) many other remarkable things going on in Russia recently that if put into proper prospective, seem to indicate the beginings of a spiritual rebirth.
Even though Dostoyevski, Gogol, and other great Russian writters forsaw the revolution and so many of it terrible consequences, they all seemed to have had the firm belief that Russia would one day awaken again to reveal the truth of Orthodoxy to the rest of the world.
I cant help but hope we may be seeing the first signs of this.

[VYholden]

"...there was a feeling of grace in them which is not there anymore."

I understand what Andreas is trying to say by this comment in his always gentlemanly and calm manner.

This observation is not unique to Russia; from personal experience, it can be made even in *some* churches of the wealthy Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

Beautiful architecture, beautiful iconography, decor with no expense saved, priests who get paid quite well, etc...does not make, always for a feeling of the Holy Spirit...though ofcourse the Holy Spirit is at every Eucharist.

It is sometimes those Orthodox churches, monasteries, and missions of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and other American Orthodox jurisdictions whose priests struggle to support themselve and their families, or where the priests are fully dedicated to their ministry to save souls without concern for wordly goals and achievements and objects and whose parishioners attend for God rather than ethnic community, and where Christ is central to everything and persons are respected for their spirit rather than the depths of their pocket,--it is those places where one often has a strong feeling of God's presence--the Holy Spirit.

Alice