[metropropuskruww]

Being fairly new here, I hope that this is the right place to post this. I thought this was so interesting, that I needed to share it!

Being here in Athens, Greece, my husband and I, (as I explained in another post on 'Casual Conversation' yesterday) found ourselves at the Archdiocesan Metropolis (Cathedral) for Divine Liturgy today...

After the Divine Liturgy, the priests proceeded to the other side of the square infront of the Church, where a bronze statue of the last Emperor Constantine Paleologos XI stands.

At this place, a 'mnymosyno'/'memorial service' was chanted for the last Emperor of Byzantium, who fought alongside his countrymen against the invading Ottomans.

A band played, and the moving hymn, 'Champion General/Invinciple Champion' (Tin Ipermaho) was sung from the famous Akathist to the Theotokos. The Priest also remembered those Greek and Roman citizens of Byzantium who fought together valiantly on that sad and fateful day in the history of Christianity.

After five hundred and fifty years, it was moving to pray for the soul of the last leader of the Christian Byzantine Empire. May his memory, and the memory of all who perished that horrible day, be eternal in the Kingdom of our God!

May Christianity one day flourish again on the shores of the Bosporus..in God's time and in God's way--
(to make clear that I am not making any political expansionist gestures for the nation of Greece ).

In Christ,
Alice

[BruceCroucshs]

Interesting. On the historical note, there is some uncertainty as to how Constantine met his end, with a number of conflicting reports and traditions in existence. Some of them are quite astonishing. I quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_XI:

"Some sources record that he was killed, after he was recognized after battle by his purple boots. Another source records that the Turks were never able to identify his body, and so the last Roman Emperor was buried in a mass grave along with his soldiers. Concerning about his occultation, legend has it, that when the Ottomans entered the city, an angel rescued the emperor, turned him into marble and placed him in a cave under the earth near the Golden Gate, where he waits to be brought to life again."

Another legend, similar to the last one, was told to my family by a Greek family from the island of Samos. Supposedly Constantine was celebrating the Liturgy with the Patriarch in Hagia Sophia when the Turks burst into the cathedral - at which point the emporer and the patriarch, still holding the Eucharist, walked "into" the wall and were never seen again! The family went on to tell us of a Turkish boy of Constantinople who, during the last century, disappeared while his parents (Moslems) were at prayer at Hagia Sofia and then reappeared four years later in the same place where his parents had left him. When questioned as to where he had been, he answered in surprise that he had only been away a few minutes, and pointed to the "door" through which he had passed (his parents could see nothing but a blank wall)! When questioned further, he said that he had seen "people in rich, shining robes," (among them, presumably the emporer) and heard beautiful music and chanting - that of the old Byzantine liturgy.

An interesting story, but in all probability nothing more. I haven't heard of it anywhere else, and there doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt that Constantine fell in defense of his city.

[jeaccatty]

Another legend, similar to the last one, was told to my family by a Greek family from the island of Samos. Supposedly Constantine was celebrating the Liturgy with the Patriarch in Hagia Sophia when the Turks burst into the cathedral - at which point the emporer and the patriarch, still holding the Eucharist, walked "into" the wall and were never seen again!

This is a fairly common story which is told in many variations. I did not hear the version involving the emperor and patriarch, but rather that it was one of the cathedral priests celebrating a regular daily liturgy and when th Turks burst in took the gifts and walked through the wall of the altar. It is said that if someone were to begin the liturgy without the gifts, at the precise moment he disappeared, the priest will return through the wall and finish the liturgy that was interrupted. I don't doubt that there will be a multitude of other variations on the theme of the disappearing priest and the unfinished liturgy at Hagia Sophia.

Fr David Moser

[metropropuskruww]

This is a fairly common story which is told in many variations. I did not hear the version involving the emperor and patriarch, but rather that it was one of the cathedral priests celebrating a regular daily liturgy and when th Turks burst in took the gifts and walked through the wall of the altar. It is said that if someone were to begin the liturgy without the gifts, at the precise moment he disappeared, the priest will return through the wall and finish the liturgy that was interrupted. I don't doubt that there will be a multitude of other variations on the theme of the disappearing priest and the unfinished liturgy at Hagia Sophia.

Fr David Moser

Dear Father David and John,

Indeed, being of Greek background, I have heard variation of the above story. I don't remember the one that I heard involving the Emperor...however, I have heard that the Priests with the Holy Gifts walked into the walls...

This is the biggest catastophe that Christendom has ever suffered. I pray that one day the Priests will come out of the walls and serve liturgy in the great Church of the Haghia Sophia again!

Yesterday, here in Athens, we often drive by a church of St. Constantine. A thought crossed my mind, which had never before, and I said to him: "why don't we all pray to St. Constantine for his intercessions to grant freedoms for Christianity in Constantinoupolis--after all, he founded the city"....

I pray, and trust in God's time and in God's way...our Ecumenical Patriarch does not complain, but he is under great persecution, and the time is coming where he may have to move if nothing changes. I do ask that we remember this intention in our prayers.

In Christ,
Alice

[Erexecike]

Dear Alice,

do you know that on 12th December of 1452 the uniate patriarch Isidore (later a cardinal) had a common liturgy with a latin cardinal?
and that after this ,the orthodox faithful denied to entry in Hagia Sophia?
St.Raphael of Lesbos ,who was emperor's close friend and at this time protosyggelos in the patriarchate, disagreed and prefered to leave Constantinople and live in exile.

As many historians believe, the crucial point for the Eastern Roman Empire or Romanity ,was the fall by the Franks in 1204.
Then it was a matter of time ,for the weak state to fall in the hands of the turks.

And the final hit came in 1922 when orthodoxy dissapeared from Asia Minor.

Anyway,"here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come."(Hebrew 13,14)

[BruceCroucshs]

Turkey, last I heard, was vying for membership in the EU, so hopefully the Europeans will show some backbone and bar them from entering unless they start easing up on the Christian minority (which is apparently now 100,000 or less, including non-Orthodox).

Dear Father David and John,

Indeed, being of Greek background, I have heard variation of the above story. I don't remember the one that I heard involving the Emperor...however, I have heard that the Priests with the Holy Gifts walked into the walls...

This is the biggest catastophe that Christendom has ever suffered. I pray that one day the Priests will come out of the walls and serve liturgy in the great Church of the Haghia Sophia again!

Yesterday, here in Athens, we often drive by a church of St. Constantine. A thought crossed my mind, which had never before, and I said to him: "why don't we all pray to St. Constantine for his intercessions to grant freedoms for Christianity in Constantinoupolis--after all, he founded the city"....

I pray, and trust in God's time and in God's way...our Ecumenical Patriarch does not complain, but he is under great persecution, and the time is coming where he may have to move if nothing changes. I do ask that we remember this intention in our prayers.

In Christ,
Alice

[metropropuskruww]

Turkey, last I heard, was vying for membership in the EU, so hopefully the Europeans will show some backbone and bar them from entering unless they start easing up on the Christian minority (which is apparently now 100,000 or less, including non-Orthodox).

Dear John,

With the situation, as it is at present, the EU would be making a travesty of all it believes in if it were to accept Turkey in.

The Greek government, while supportive of Turkey's bid, took the step, last year, to bring the EU's attention to the plight of the Ecumenical Patriarch and to make their support of him well known.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is also supportive of Turkey's bid, hoping against hope, that this may be the only way in which the Patriarchate may be able to survive in continuation in their land. Being a persecuted 'guest'/resident of their land, I don't think that he could do otherwise, anyway. He walks on eggshells in all that he says and does on this delicate subject, and shows himself to be an exemplarary Turkish citizen, despite everything which he suffers and laments.

Personally, I am suspicious and fearful of their entry... While Turkish people are wonderful people, their nation's politics are terrible. They know that they are in a position of geo-strategic strength for the U.S., and they take advantage of it. They are well known for 'yessing' and not following through, and despite this, they get away with it all the time...so why would a leopard change its spots? I am afraid that, even if they superficially please all the criteria to enter the EU, that once they join, they will be back up to all their old tricks.

In a way, my sentiments as an Orthodox of Greek heritage, regarding Turkey's entry into the EU can be compared to being 'between a rock and a hard place'...you may be damned if they do, but damned if they don't. It is hard to know. If it were not for the EP, I would say that a Muslim nation (if it were as secular as we would like to think, they would not be persecuting Christianity), has absolutely no place in the EU. Let's face it, majority Muslim nations' identity is more their faith than any other cultural uniqueness.

For the Christians and the Ecumenical Patriarch, truly, all we can do, and should do, is pray that God will have mercy on us and help us find a solution...sometimes, in dire situations where there is no hope, only God can provide a miraculous solution. May it be so.

In Christ our Hope,
Alice

[viagradiscounttt]

do you know that on 12th December of 1452 the uniate patriarch Isidore (later a cardinal) had a common liturgy with a latin cardinal?
and that after this ,the orthodox faithful denied to entry in Hagia Sophia?
St.Raphael of Lesbos ,who was emperor's close friend and at this time protosyggelos in the patriarchate, disagreed and prefered to leave Constantinople and live in exile.

This is the point that interests me (leaving aside the political subplot of the thread, which I don't want to get involved in at present). I believe that the Emperor subscribed to the Union of Florence, and was therefore presumably technically a Roman Catholic (Uniate, if that term isn't anachronistic here). At the same time, I have read that despite the opposition to the Union, the last service before the City fell was a combined service including both parties (a fact, if it is a fact, that raises all sorts of other questions). And then there is the memorial service for him described in Alice's post, which is normally only done for the Orthodox departed.

So now I'm confused. Apart from being a courageous patriot, is the Emperor Constantine XI regarded as Orthodox, or Uniate, or somehow both?? Maybe somebody can help.

As a footnote, I would like to know more about St Raphael of Lesbos. Is this the same as the St Raphael of Lesbos who was martyred, with two companions, under the Turks? I had thought they were a bit later.

[romalama]

Dear John,

With the situation, as it is at present, the EU would be making a travesty of all it believes in if it were to accept Turkey in.

The Greek government, while supportive of Turkey's bid, took the step, last year, to bring the EU's attention to the plight of the Ecumenical Patriarch and to make their support of him well known.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is also supportive of Turkey's bid, hoping against hope, that this may be the only way in which the Patriarchate may be able to survive in continuation in their land. Being a persecuted 'guest'/resident of their land, I don't think that he could do otherwise, anyway. He walks on eggshells in all that he says and does on this delicate subject, and shows himself to be an exemplarary Turkish citizen, despite everything which he suffers and laments.

Personally, I am suspicious and fearful of their entry... While Turkish people are wonderful people, their nation's politics are terrible. They know that they are in a position of geo-strategic strength for the U.S., and they take advantage of it. They are well known for 'yessing' and not following through, and despite this, they get away with it all the time...so why would a leopard change its spots? I am afraid that, even if they superficially please all the criteria to enter the EU, that once they join, they will be back up to all their old tricks.

In a way, my sentiments as an Orthodox of Greek heritage, regarding Turkey's entry into the EU can be compared to being 'between a rock and a hard place'...you may be damned if they do, but damned if they don't. It is hard to know. If it were not for the EP, I would say that a Muslim nation (if it were as secular as we would like to think, they would not be persecuting Christianity), has absolutely no place in the EU. Let's face it, majority Muslim nations' identity is more their faith than any other cultural uniqueness.

For the Christians and the Ecumenical Patriarch, truly, all we can do, and should do, is pray that God will have mercy on us and help us find a solution...sometimes, in dire situations where there is no hope, only God can provide a miraculous solution. May it be so.

In Christ our Hope,
Alice

Maybe the doors of Turkey will open from inside.Haven't you heard stories of cryptochristians in Turkey?
I know of four Orthodox Saints and Martyrs of turkish origin.
Saint Constantine the martyr from Lesvos, a Turk in Origin.(You can google him as Constantine Hagarit)
Saint Michael or Osios Michael he saw a remarkable vision in Constantinoupolis of Saints, Apostoles Theotokos and Christ.
A hidden place is referred there in the city I'm not sure if it's in the temple of Agia Sofia, with a golden icon of The Virgin who is said on the liberation of Constantinoupolis in the future to come, many say in our generation, to make incredible miracles and even resurrect people.
Martyr Ahmed in Constantinoupolis, he was rich had a russian woman as slave or servant followed her, saw in the divine litourgy a child , Christ being cut, believed and martyred in 17th century.

On the miracle in Jerusalem in16th century regarding the Holy Light and the armenians, when it came through the door, an ottoman saw and believed.If I remember correct the nailed him on the door and burnt him alived.
You can see in the big wooden doors the burnings even today.The remains-leipsana of the martyr are held in the Patriarchate of Jerusalem(not sure?).

There is the remarkable story of the monk Nikolaos in the Kiev Lavra a Turk in origin, how from the turkish army he became an orthodox monk.He was theoptis, don't know the term in english, he saw the Heaven Christ Theotokos Saints the hell.Maybe he is a Saint not declared yet only God knows.He show satan in hell with mohamed in green clothing, sitting on satan's palm.The description is so vivid I still remember it.There is a beautiful story of a glorious martyr Arab and muslim in origin.He martyred in Georgia for Christ.I will post another time his life and martyrdom.

In reccent years two characteristic miracles happened there:that in Syria with the resurrected Saudi Arabian by Theotokos. Theotokos Seidaniyia the orthodox monastery.Seidaniyia means something like Lady.This is the text in english

[delnisfernan]

So now I'm confused. Apart from being a courageous patriot, is the Emperor Constantine XI regarded as Orthodox, or Uniate, or somehow both?? Maybe somebody can help.

I would also be curious to see this question answered.

[vipBrooriErok]

This is the point that interests me (leaving aside the political subplot of the thread, which I don't want to get involved in at present). I believe that the Emperor subscribed to the Union of Florence, and was therefore presumably technically a Roman Catholic (Uniate, if that term isn't anachronistic here). At the same time, I have read that despite the opposition to the Union, the last service before the City fell was a combined service including both parties (a fact, if it is a fact, that raises all sorts of other questions). And then there is the memorial service for him described in Alice's post, which is normally only done for the Orthodox departed.

So now I'm confused. Apart from being a courageous patriot, is the Emperor Constantine XI regarded as Orthodox, or Uniate, or somehow both?? Maybe somebody can help.

As a footnote, I would like to know more about St Raphael of Lesbos. Is this the same as the St Raphael of Lesbos who was martyred, with two companions, under the Turks? I had thought they were a bit later.

I believe it is the same St. Raphael of Lesbos (with Sts. Nicholas and Irene). As for Emperor Constantine XI's being a Uniate, I think this is looking at it from our own time period, where things have solidified. The information we have on what was going on then is sketchy. It is generally thought, as I understand it, that the emperor was not a pusher of Uniatism, unlike his ancestor Michael VIII. There are icons of him, there are memorial services for him since that time it appears, and he has a veneration as an Orthodox saint and martyr. His death, along with the fall of Constantinople, is commemorated on the calendar. As I understand it, it is something that has been handed down and accepted.

He would not have been able to be glorified under the Turks, and after Greek independence, a formal service may have seemed superfluous given his veneration. There is a statue erected to the saint and martyr Constantine XI in Athens.