[thighikergove]

I have read in a number of places that in 1994 the Greek Orthodox Church knighted Radovan Karadzic, and declared him "one of the most prominent sons of our Lord Jesus Christ working for peace." I'm wondering if the Greek Church has since come to repent of this decision. I'm not a fan of NATO or US involvement in the Balkans, but I am really disturbed by the relationship of the Orthodox Church to militant Serbian nationalism.

[Ltftujkg]

I have read in a number of places that in 1994 the Greek Orthodox Church knighted Radovan Karadzic, and declared him "one of the most prominent sons of our Lord Jesus Christ working for peace." I'm wondering if the Greek Church has since come to repent of this decision. I'm not a fan of NATO or US involvement in the Balkans, but I am really disturbed by the relationship of the Orthodox Church to militant Serbian nationalism.

I cannot find any information about the above but you should keep in mind the fact that there have been a lot of lies concerning what happened and is happening in the Balkans. Muslims states have been created that mean future trouble in this region.

The so-called "western" press have concentrated on the suffering of the Muslims in this region. Thousands of Orthodox Serbs were also massacred but this has been downplayed. Why? This absolutely inexcusable one-sided interpretation of events should be examined very carefully.

Politics is a very dirty business. And, unfortunately, today's leaders are particularly immoral.

The following article is very interesting and objective I believe.

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/011053.html

Could you provide a link to the article or articles you refer to above, please.

[metropropuskruww]

I cannot find any information about the above but you should keep in mind the fact that there have been a lot of lies concerning what happened and is happening in the Balkans. Muslims states have been created that mean future trouble in this region.

The so-called "western" press have concentrated on the suffering of the Muslims in this region. Thousands of Orthodox Serbs were also massacred but this has been downplayed. Why? This absolutely inexcusable one-sided interpretation of events should be examined very carefully. What Effie says is very true.

Not only are politics dirty, but very dangerous. The West has always maligned the Orthodox East, but by doing so in this present day reality, they are not giving power to the Western Christian Church, but to the very dangerous (for Christianity) politics of Islam.

[Daruhuw]

...I am really disturbed by the relationship of the Orthodox Church to militant Serbian nationalism.

Yes, to all of the above concerns, but I also echo Ryan's sentiment here too.

As a former Canadian soldier (hmm... what nation took a rather prominent role in the UN peacekeeping efforts in that region before NATO command came along and made a dog's breakfast of it?) I can assure you that the militant Serbs are so far from guiltless, it is ridiculous.

I can point out though that, as a general rule, the faithful Orthodox Christians never picked up weapons, and the people who populated the Serb "death squads" and the like, were the holdovers from the Communist regime who never darkened the door of a Church (except to desecrate it). Those two groups of people are not the same, even though they might have the same ethnic origin.

But, I am unnerved by unblinking support of Serbian nationalism in the name of Orthodox Christianity.

The news doesn't always help because there is so much deceipt, guile, and false representations in that part of the world, that the journalists themselves rarely understand what they are reporting.

"Politics is lying to reporters, and then wholeheartedly believing those same lies when you see them in print."

[Daruhuw]

And, for what it's worth, I didn't know the Church knighted people. I thought knighthood was a political holdover from medeival military practices, and I'd always associated it with monarchs, rather than ecclesiastical figures.

Who knew?

[thighikergove]

This book (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=0WtiE33ASiQC&dq=) cites a 1993 article from The Independent about the Greek Church awarding Karadzic and describing him this way, unfortunately I cannot find the original article.

I am well aware of the biased nature of Western reporting on the Balkans; I have no doubt that there were thugs and murderers on both sides. My main concern here is that the church has picked one of those sides and implicitly condoned atrocities.

[Ltftujkg]

Ryan, how can the Orthodox Church condone atrocities? It goes against everything we believe.

I will also try and find something on this. Perhaps it is not true at all.

Effie

[biannaruh]

I've done a search in English, and come up with circular sources. A search in Greek, and I've come up with nothing. I'd like to think that this knighthood is a hoax. I would be horrified if it wasn't.

[thighikergove]

I am not sure if this particular case is true or not... I have only been able to see some online books and articles which are inconclusive. However, I don't think it's any secret that many of the Serbian hierarchs, including Patriarch Pavle, very openly support people like Karadzic.

[vipBrooriErok]

I recall, however, that Patriarch Pavle explicitly condemned the violence and excommunicated any Orthodox perpetrators of atrocities.

He also said that if only one person had to die for the creation of a greater Serbia, it would be better for Serbia not to exist at all.

[ingeneensueva]

The article is from 27 August 1993, in The Independent (London). I quote here the most important portion: "To many, Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader, is a close partisan of the Devil. But to a religious order affiliated to the Greek Orthodox Church, he is "one of the most prominent sons of Our Lord Jesus Christ" and is "working for peace".

At a ceremony in Pale, the Bosnian Serb stronghold, Mr Karadzic was named a "Knight of the Sovereign Greek Order of St Dennis of Zante", which rewards "merit and humanitarian achievement", The title and blue sash were bestowed by Mladin Zarobica, an American businessman of Serbian parentage who also is a knight of the organisation. "

[jeaccatty]

"Knight of the Sovereign Greek Order of St Dennis of Zante", which rewards "merit and humanitarian achievement", The title and blue sash were bestowed by Mladin Zarobica, an American businessman of Serbian parentage who also is a knight of the organisation. "

I would point out here that the Greek Orthodox Church did NOT award anything to Mr Karadic, rather this was a parachurch organization which exists alongside the Church but which has no official existence within the Church. I don't know anything about this particular group, but I would be willing to guess that it is more "nationalistic/ethnic" than it is Orthodox.

We have to be careful when we see such statements by the mainstream media, especially in the west, since they really have very little clue about the Orthodox Church and what is or is not a part of the Church. I know that more than once when I have had the opportunity to give an interview to the local paper, even though I am very careful and clear about what I say and make sure the reporter understands, by the time the article comes out it is full of inaccuracies and false/ignorant assumptions. Reporters also tend to accept without much verification the word of their subject that they are "Orthodox" (hence once I was once floored to see in the newspaper that the leader of an independent, non-denominational, ex-catholic bible study was an "Orthodox priest". They only took his personal self description as an actual fact.) So we really have to be careful to find out what the facts really are.

Fr David Moser

[iroxmxinau]

As an orthodox Serb I would like to say that I am very disappointed with this topic.
Even if Mr. Radovan Karadzic is a monster on ABC or CNN, he is our liturgical brother because we drink form the same cup, and he is a sinner like all of us.
Also, he helped Serb to save orthodox monasteries and also their orthodox faith during the bloody civilian war with RC Croats and Muslims, and because of that he is a hero for most of the orthodox Serbs.
Our Patriarch Pavle, who is by the way a living saint, said once during this war that if we Serbs have to acquire Great Serbia or even Serbia with a single man by being not human we don’t need that kind of the state.

[iroxmxinau]

To many, Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader, is a close partisan of the Devil. But to a religious order affiliated to the Greek Orthodox Church, he is "one of the most prominent sons of Our Lord Jesus Christ" and is "working for peace".

And for 90 per cent of orthodx Serbs he is a hero too.

[Ltftujkg]

Dusan,we have already mentioned the fact that emphasis in the "western" press is always on what the Serbs did or didn't do. No mention is made of Muslim atrocities and others.
No mention is made of the destruction of Orthodox monasteries in Kosova, no mention is made of the ethnic cleansing of areas that are now in the control of Muslims.

Something that is deplorable but seems to have been forgotten is the NATO bombing of Servia on the Orthodox Good Friday. This says it all unfortunately.

On the other hand, if Karadzic is guilty of what he has been accused of, then he has to be punished. No matter whether he is Orthodox, Muslim, Roman Catholic or Buddhist.

This unfair manipulation of the justice system has to stop though. One law for everyone, no matter whether they are Serbs, Croats, Americans or whatever. One example of this two sided justice is the fact that both Naser Oric and Ramush Haradinaj were found innocent.

One law for all.

The Orthodox Church does not support murderers of the innocent.

Effie

[iroxmxinau]

The Orthodox Church does not support murderers of the innocent.

Effie[/QUOTE]


Кад крст и пушка стоје о истом рамену-могу разумети само у смислу да крст казује да је пушка ту у знак љубави према ближњем, у одбрани правде и мира од насиља злочинаца.

Патријарх Павле

In English

When the rifle and the cross are on the same shoulder, I can understand, but only if the rifle is there as a protection of love to the one who is close to me and to protect justice and peace from the tortures by the enemy.

Patriarche Pavle

[Ltftujkg]

The Orthodox Church does not support murderers of the innocent.

Effie

Кад крст и пушка стоје о истом рамену-могу разумети само у смислу да крст казује да је пушка ту у знак љубави према ближњем, у одбрани правде и мира од насиља злочинаца.

Патријарх Павле

In English

When the rifle and the cross are on the same shoulder, I can understand, but only if the rifle is there as a protection of love to the one who is close to me and to protect justice and peace from the tortures by the enemy.

Patriarche Pavle[/QUOTE]

Dusan, (excuse me if this is your surname because I don't know the Slav language and both your names are unfamiliar to me) -

Dusan, I said murderers of the innocent. If atrocities were committed then the culprits should pay, no matter what religion they are. The difficult thing here is that only those involved know what happened. The rest of us must rely on often incorrect information given to us by either incompetent, lazy or, even worse, reporters of the mass media who have their own reasons to mislead us.

That is why I also said that the law should be impartial and the same rules applied to all sides involved. The fact that this is not the case makes us wonder why the truth is being distorted in this way.

A couple of weeks ago I was reading a history book and there was a reference in it to the Roman Catholic Church and it's activities during WWII, especially concerning the elimination of the Orthodox Serbs. I was only reconnected to the Internet yesterday so have had no chance to find more information about this matter - in fact I had forgotten all about it until I read your message.

Effie

[Ltftujkg]

Dusan, why did you repost your last message?

Did I say something that upset you?

The below segment is the one I referred to in my last message.
I will translate as I write :

The Ustasi organisation in Croatia.

Following the German invasion and the occupation of Yugoslavia, this organization collaborated with the Germans and fought against the partisans of Tito and other Yugoslavian resistance movement. The Ustase, with the help of the Catholic priests from the Vatican, carried out an unheard of holocaust against the Serbian Orthodox Christians held in concentration camps. After the war, the leader Ante Pavelic, was accused of war crimes, but with the help of the Franciscan monks, managed to escape to Austria and from there, via Rome, to Argentina. He was shot in Buenos Aires in 1957 and died in 1959 from complications caused by the wound in his spine. This organization still exists.

[Ltftujkg]

Concerning the one sidedness of the reporting of events in the Balkans, particularly of anything to do with the Serbs :

Something that is only now being revealed is the fact that the Muslim Albanian Kosovans seized 300 Kosovo Serbs (mostly civilians), sent their bodies to Albania and removed their organs. These body organs were later sold on the world market.

"Del Ponte reports in her book that the Kosovo Albanian KLA was involved in a program of sending Serbs, mostly seized civilians, to an Albanian location where "doctors extracted the captives' internal organs," which were sent off for sale. She estimates that 300 kidnapped Serbs were so treated. (For a partial non-authorized translation of Del Ponte's account, Harry de Quetteville, "Serb prisoners were stripped of their organs in Kosovo war," Daily Telegraph, April 11, 2008). This was done at the very time UN and NATO forces were deploying to Kosovo as the "humanitarian intervention" war was ending in 1999. Human Rights Watch has found "serious and credible allegations" on the organ-extraction and sale issue in a series of reports, but Del Ponte claims that here again, as with NATO's possible war crimes, it was difficult to get a serious investigation and process underway on the matter. The New York Times has mentioned this charge only once, in a single sentence deep in an article on another subject, in which the charge is dismissed with contempt by KLA terrorist and high-ranking Kosovo Albanian official Ramush Haradinaj (Dan Bilefsky, "Ex-Soldier May Go From The Hague's Docket to Kosovo's Ballot," New York Times, July 12, 2008)."

I have said it before and will say it again - there are monsters amongst us.


As a Christian, I think that whoever commits atrocities should be arrested and put on trial. Political favourites, such as the KLA leader should be included - otherwise we can believe nothing that we are told. If this were done for all suspected criminals in these conflicts, then the Serbs would be sure that a fair trial would be given to those Serbs who have been arrested. But, as is apparent, this is not being done, so whether Karadzic is guilty or innocent of the crimes he has been charged with, there will always be those who believe that he is being victimised.

I still have not read anything that suggests that the Greek Orthodox Church supports Karadzic. I can believe, however, that it would support fair treatment for all those who have been accused, whether Orthodox or not.