[Elitiachirl]

To all members:

In 1987 or 1988, when I was staying in USA for a few years, some Orthodox people were talking about something they learned from a correspondent student of Orthodox theology who was a doctor of medicine. This doctor told them that recent to that time, man had cracked the genetic code and learned that every living creature had a number of genes or something else related to genetics that was numbered, set and unchangeable.

According to these people, every creature has a different number. A dog is 35 or 39; a horse is 45 or 49 - I can't remember which animal's number ended in 5 and which in 9. Man's number is 666!

This of course was very profound in that the Book of Revelation gave that number for man without explanation as to why it should be that number in particular. Now was not only the explanation evident but also proof that the content in Revelation is truly prophetic and surpassing scientific "wisdom".

Why was it being revealed after all that time? Was this a sign of the times?

The Internet was not yet invented then, but in this century I conducted www searches and found no such information nor anything to the contrary. Even in the 1990s I read through a lengthy National Geographic article on DNA and found nothing about a number assigned to every living creature. If the breakthrough was true, what happened to the data? Is it being suppressed?

Do any forum members know anything about this? I assume that doctors who studied for their degrees entirely before or after 1987 or 1988 would have no knowledge of this genetic number. So are there any doctors who were med. students in 1987 or 1988 that are forum members? Can he/she or they shed any light on this topic please?

In Christ, victor

[tuszit]

To all members:

In 1987 or 1988, when I was staying in USA for a few years, some Orthodox people were talking about something they learned from a correspondent student of Orthodox theology who was a doctor of medicine. This doctor told them that recent to that time, man had cracked the genetic code and learned that every living creature had a number of genes or something else related to genetics that was numbered, set and unchangeable.

According to these people, every creature has a different number. A dog is 35 or 39; a horse is 45 or 49 - I can't remember which animal's number ended in 5 and which in 9. Man's number is 666!

This of course was very profound in that the Book of Revelation gave that number for man without explanation as to why it should be that number in particular. Now was not only the explanation evident but also proof that the content in Revelation is truly prophetic and surpassing scientific "wisdom".

Why was it being revealed after all that time? Was this a sign of the times?

The Internet was not yet invented then, but in this century I conducted www searches and found no such information nor anything to the contrary. Even in the 1990s I read through a lengthy National Geographic article on DNA and found nothing about a number assigned to every living creature. If the breakthrough was true, what happened to the data? Is it being suppressed?

Do any forum members know anything about this? I assume that doctors who studied for their degrees entirely before or after 1987 or 1988 would have no knowledge of this genetic number. So are there any doctors who were med. students in 1987 or 1988 that are forum members? Can he/she or they shed any light on this topic please?

In Christ, victor

I think this is an "urban legend." I graduated from medical school in 1980. The genetic code has to some degree been figured out, in that certain genes control certain aspects such as hair color, eye color, etc, and certain genes (or their mutations) have been mapped and are known to be markers for certain diseases. A "normal" human male is 26 XY chromosome number, and a female 26 XX number. However, there are thousands if not millions of genes that make up each chromosome, and therefore an individual's DNA-certainly way more than 666.

That's why DNA can be used as criminal evidence like a fingerprint because there are so many possibilities, i.e. infinite, that every human is unique and hence can be used as an ID. I think the "666" is more a function of certain Protestant groups fascination with the mark of the Beast and and paranoia surrounding 666, than it has to do with any medical substance of fact re genetics. People are always looking for something to explain "666" or to see it in things that proves the end is near, or that Revelation must therefore be true.

Who needs to prove Revelation? Having not been Orthodox that long, my simplistic assessment of Orthodox eschatology is that "He is coming back." That works for me!

Doug

[Freeptube]

A "normal" human male is 26 XY chromosome number, and a female 26 XX number.
Doug

Isn't it 46 XY and 46 XX?

[JessiPollo]

Dear all,

I don't see any direct bearing of this topic on the Community's focus of patristic study, so unless some can be directly identified, let us wrap up this thread and move on to other things.

With thanks,

INXC, Dcn Matthew

[popsicesHoupe]

The argument I used to believe for "why 666?" is that the number "7" is often used in Scripture as a symbol of completeness and perfection, so "6" would be a falling short of perfection. The Beast, the Antichrist and the false prophet form a kind of "unholy trinity", so this is represented by a trinity of sixes - 666.

That's been supplanted for me by Irenaeus' argument (though the old one may also be true to some degree). He puts it this way in Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXX:

Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end) As a side note, while some older manuscripts of the Revelation list the number of the beast as 616, Irenaeus explicitly mentions and rejects that number (on the basis of the testimony of those who spoke personally with John as well as on the testimony of manuscript copies, as stated in the above quote). He cautions that:

For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. However, he's not that big on trying to figure out ahead of time who the Antichrist is through numerical calculations. As he says a little farther along:

But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.

... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved.

... for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.

But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. In Christ,
Mike

[Elitiachirl]

The argument I used to believe for "why 666?" is that the number "7" is often used in Scripture as a symbol of completeness and perfection, so "6" would be a falling short of perfection. The Beast, the Antichrist and the false prophet form a kind of "unholy trinity", so this is represented by a trinity of sixes - 666.

Thank you Servant of Christ, Mike:

I am aware of scriptural support for the number six hundred three score and six. It can also be noted that man was created on the sixth day. I am still seeking info regarding a genetic numerical connection if it exists. I saw the Doctor who was probably the source of that info but I never asked him because 1) I was never introduced and 2) I wrongly assumed that the info would be released to the world's news media.

The following info pasted from my last book may be of interest to forumees. I will not submit the book for publishing.


Since the Antichrist shall come under the guise of the messiah, he shall indubitably assume the title "King of the Jews"; doubtless he shall be called king chiefly in . To express this exalted title in Hebrew requires, instead of the genitive case, the prefix (lamed) before the rest of the Hebrew letters.And the sum of the numerical equivalents of these Hebrew letters will be exactly 666. Here is the calculation:

ha 5
mem 40
lamed 30
kaph 20
lamed 30
iod 10
shin 300
resh 200
aleph 1
lamed 30
TOTAL 666

There is but one small difficulty: the letter (kaph) in the word "Melek" is not a final "kaph", but the usual one (in the sense of a number).... D.A.V.U. Sloet, Oldenzaal, HollandMay 18, 1893

In Christ, Victor

[popsicesHoupe]

I am aware of scriptural support for the number six hundred three score and six. It can also be noted that man was created on the sixth day. I am still seeking info regarding a genetic numerical connection if it exists.

The point I wanted to make with that was that, while it is true that "... the Book of Revelation gave that number for man without explanation as to why it should be that number in particular," (as you said in your first post), there is a reason given in the writings of Irenaeus "as to why it should be that number in particular," and this was a very short time after the Revelation was written. The "why" of the number wasn't considered some great mystery awaiting future clarification. Calculating the number required wisdom, not scientific knowledge still almost two millenia in the future.

The only connection I have seen between human genetics and the number 666 was that the "total nucleons in the B-component of paired U, G, or C codons = 666" (whatever all that means). It was just one of a bunch of possible numbers - there were a 547, 452, 592, 464, etc., etc., scattered in the nucleon counts also - so this particular "genetic numerical connection" is to me merely a semi-interesting mathematical coincidence.

I find it very difficult to believe that any other alleged numerical connection would be any different, especially one with the parameters you mentioned. If the genetics-derived number for man is 666 but the number for a dog or horse is in the 35-50 range, there must be some kind of intricate calculations going on, because the numbers of genes and bases aren't that dissimilar:

- Humans have around 20,000-25,000 genes, while a simple roundworm has about 20,000, so dogs and horses should be in the same ballpark;
- Humans have about 3 billion DNA base pairs while dogs have about 2.5 billion and horses about 2.7 billion;
- Humans actually have fewer chromosomes: 46 compared to 78 for a dog and 64 for a horse.

Intricate calculations make numerical coincidences of this type very likely, if you just crunch enough numbers. As the old statistics saying goes, if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything you want. Which, when you get down to it, is the problem Irenaeus saw in getting too involved in playing with this number until the time of the prophecy's fulfillment - you can get almost any answer you want.

In Christ,
Mike

[Elitiachirl]

The only connection I have seen between human genetics and the number 666 was that the "total nucleons in the B-component of paired U, G, or C codons = 666" (whatever all that means). It was just one of a bunch of possible numbers - there were a 547, 452, 592, 464, etc., etc., scattered in the nucleon counts also - so this particular "genetic numerical connection" is to me merely a semi-interesting mathematical coincidence.

I find it very difficult to believe that any other alleged numerical connection would be any different, especially one with the parameters you mentioned.

Intricate calculations make numerical coincidences of this type very likely, if you just crunch enough numbers. As the old statistics saying goes, if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything you want. Which, when you get down to it, is the problem Irenaeus saw in getting too involved in playing with this number until the time of the prophecy's fulfillment - you can get almost any answer you want.

Once again, thank you Servant of Christ, Mike:

Your reply is very informative and in line with what I was seeking.

You have a better grasp of the subject than I do and that makes me think that the story may have been a mere rumour started by one hoaxter and perpetuated by genuinely deceived Orthodox Christians. They did not have the detailed scientific data you used in your explanation.

Thank you for resolving that issue for me. It bugged me for more than twenty years!

May Christ's light shine on us all, Victor

[DJElizardo]

I ran this rumor by Dr. Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project in Washington, D.C. He says this is the first time he's heard of such a rumor, and he has no idea to what it's supposed to correlate.

[Emapymosy]

I thought the number 666 referred to Nero.

Deborah

[popsicesHoupe]

I thought the number 666 referred to Nero.

Deborah

From what I've read, that came from an interesting calculation, since it requires taking Nero's full title - Nero Caesar - and putting it into a Greek form, Neron Kaisar (not sure where the final "n" came from). Then, this is transliterated into Hebrew or Aramaic, giving NRWN QSR. Applying Hebrew gematria, you get 666.

Of course, the problem with that is that Irenaeus, as I noted above, said (emphasis mine):

... reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; ... The three words/names Irenaeus gives as examples of names you can get 666 from are Teitan, Lateinos, and Euanthas. All are calculated from the numerical values of the Greek letters. As far as I know, you can't get 666 out of any Greek form of Nero's name.

That's not to say that some people even in Irenaeus' day might not have thought it was Nero. If you transliterate Nero's name without the final "N" (i.e., from the Latin form) and apply Hebrew gematria, you get 616. There is a school of thought which proposes that this is the reason for some old manuscripts showing the number as 616 - the idea is that some people were so sure Nero had been the Beast, they "corrected" John's manuscript to agree with their calculations!

Mike

[biannaruh]

Mike, you wrote:

putting it into a Greek form, Neron Kaisar (not sure where the final "n" came from). Many names rendered in Greek end with on, as part of their structure, even if the name in another language does not have the n at the end. The o in these cases is omega. So Nero becomes Neron, Apollo becomes Apollon, etc. Other names ending in o using omikron usually have an s put on the end when rendered in Greek.