[Charryith]

Residents of central Oxford are up in arms against the proposal - supported by the local authority - to have the amplified Muslim call to prayer played from a minaret in the city's mosque. The Muslims say it's the same as church bells which they 'tolerate'. However, the call to prayer is intended to be played three time a day, seven days a week - not quite the same as church bells once a week. Residents point out the contradiction between Muslims taking advantage of rights here in England which they cruelly deny to Christians in Islamic countries. When church bells can be heard in Riyadh, perhaps the call to prayer could be tolerated in Oxford.

[ronaldasten]

My idea also.

As soon as we have the first cathedral opened in Mekka, with all the rights and freedom the muslims have, then we can consider such for our countries, but until then they can call on their cellphones for their prayers.

Until then they can stay in the backyards. The arguments brought up by our politicians that they are better to look over at official places, doesn't count any more as the terrorist come up from such public mosques.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[acceraStoof]

Residents of central Oxford are up in arms against the proposal - supported by the local authority - to have the amplified Muslim call to prayer played from a minaret in the city's mosque. The Muslims say it's the same as church bells which they 'tolerate'. However, the call to prayer is intended to be played three time a day, seven days a week - not quite the same as church bells once a week. Residents point out the contradiction between Muslims taking advantage of rights here in England which they cruelly deny to Christians in Islamic countries. When church bells can be heard in Riyadh, perhaps the call to prayer could be tolerated in Oxford.

I read that this practice was banned in Germany a few years ago. It is apparently a violation of the freedom of religion.

When we talk about "freedom of religion" we do not mean that only minorities should enjoy this privilege but also the Christians of the country non-Christian people have migrated to.

What rights do Christians have in Muslim countries? Once upon a time Muslims and Christians lived peacefully together in many countries. Today, the situation has changed and Christians are being denied their civil liberties in these same countries. Is freedom of religion only for Muslims?



Effie

[Charryith]

Christians are being denied their civil liberties in these same countries Consider, for example, the barbaric treatment of Christians by the Islamic authorities in Pakistan and in Bethlehem itself by the Israeli authorities.

The attitudes of some 'liberal' authorities in countries such as England serve only the cause of the new atheistic fundamentalism which is intolerant of the religious foundations of our own society and of the Christian faith generally. Such authorities do the work of Antichrist so that when people will be told to receive his mark not only will they not object but they will think how sensible and convenient it will be.

To be fair to some Muslims in England, there is now a Christian Muslim Forum which responds to politically-correct councils' secularising agendas. One MP (Mark Pritchard, Wrekin) has called for a parliamentary debate on what he calls 'Christianophobia'.

[redDoodia]

I am not comfortable with the "only when we have bells ringing on Churches in Muslim countries" argument: it seems to run contrary to Christ's teachings of love for ones neighbour and turning the other cheek. Personally, I do not want an Islamic call to pray issued out of loud-speakers but I am not in favour of them being flatly denied based on prejudice.


With love in Christ

Alex

[acceraStoof]

I am not comfortable with the "only when we have bells ringing on Churches in Muslim countries" argument: it seems to run contrary to Christ's teachings of love for ones neighbour and turning the other cheek. Personally, I do not want an Islamic call to pray issued out of loud-speakers but I am not in favour of them being flatly denied based on prejudice.


With love in Christ

Alex

I don't think objections to this practice are based on prejudice Alex. If a minaret were built near my home and the call to prayer 5 times a day was heard loudly via loudspeakers then I would consider this to be a violation of my right to religious freedom. Why is religious freedom only the right of Muslims? When church bells ring, Muslims do not hear Christian priests and pastors urging them to praise God, rather the bells ring to inform Christians that the liturgy or service has begun. I believe there is a huge difference between an imam urging Muslims to worship Allah 5 times a day, and church bells ringing once on Sunday.

Here in Greece, of course, church bells rings once in the morning and once in the evening, not just once on Sunday, but it is still only the ringing of bells. Once a church in our area set up a loudspeaker system and every Sunday the whole liturgy was broadcast over a large area. This was stopped though because it was felt that if people wanted to hear the liturgy they would go to church to hear it. This happened in a country where 98% of the population profess to be Orthodox Christians (this percentage is changing though as more people migrate to my country).

Religious freedom is for everyone.

Effie

[ronaldasten]

I am not comfortable with the "only when we have bells ringing on Churches in Muslim countries" argument: it seems to run contrary to Christ's teachings of love for ones neighbour and turning the other cheek. Personally, I do not want an Islamic call to pray issued out of loud-speakers but I am not in favour of them being flatly denied based on prejudice.


With love in Christ

Alex

Dear Alex,

That Christianity still exists is by reason that we don't always turn the other cheek! Because if we do so, the muslim world already conquered Europe long ago.

And 'freedom of religion' is okay, but not in a way that offends other religions.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Charryith]

We have to be careful not to base our views on human rights: those are things of the world. (It is human rights law that says homosexuals have the right to 'Gay Pride' marches, the banning of which in Moscow is so abhorrent to human rights activists.) As Alex Haig rightly says, prejudice can play no part in this. We have, rather, to base ourselves on Christian witness. The interesting question is, where is the balance between an active Christian witness and turning the other cheek? (Yes, I realise they can be the same thing.) Is violation of the English sense of 'fair play' something the Christian should react against? Christians who suffer persecution in Pakistan and Bethlehem are clear enough cases. But what of us who live in what is still predominantly a Christian country? Do we turn the other cheek - whatever that may mean in our situation - when a few members of a group (Islam) which is only 3% in society are hostile to us? St Paul tells us (Romans, chapter 13) that the civil authorities are the instruments of God against evildoers. If the Christian majority elects those authorities who then fail to have regard to our legitimate concerns, do we let them get away with it? Is turning the other cheek only a personal injunction for the individual Christian? Does a Christian community in a (relatively) free country having available to it proper means of protest do nothing?

[finnmontserrat]

Crazy as it sounds, having lived for so long in what can only be called a godless society, I actually find the sound of "God is great!" and "hasten to prayer!" rather uplifting.

[Charryith]

I'm not so sure, Kris, that our society is quite so Godless as we sometimes think. For my part, I am not uplifted by hearing 'God is great' from those (and I'm talking about the fanatics we see on our TV screens) who think I'm an infidel, may want to kill me, and whose brethren elsewhere persecute Christians.

[amberamuletuk]

Me neither. Heard them again, after a long, long time, when we were in India this past summer. My daughter was positively terrified, and even though I knew what it was, it sent chills down my back. So, together we prayed the Jesus prayer, everytime we heard them. Later, I stopped paying attention, but found out that my little girl had kept praying all through that summer.

[acceraStoof]

We have to be careful not to base our views on human rights: those are things of the world. (It is human rights law that says homosexuals have the right to 'Gay Pride' marches, the banning of which in Moscow is so abhorrent to human rights activists.) As Alex Haig rightly says, prejudice can play no part in this. We have, rather, to base ourselves on Christian witness. The interesting question is, where is the balance between an active Christian witness and turning the other cheek? (Yes, I realise they can be the same thing.) Is violation of the English sense of 'fair play' something the Christian should react against? Christians who suffer persecution in Pakistan and Bethlehem are clear enough cases. But what of us who live in what is still predominantly a Christian country? Do we turn the other cheek - whatever that may mean in our situation - when a few members of a group (Islam) which is only 3% in society are hostile to us? St Paul tells us (Romans, chapter 13) that the civil authorities are the instruments of God against evildoers. If the Christian majority elects those authorities who then fail to have regard to our legitimate concerns, do we let them get away with it? Is turning the other cheek only a personal injunction for the individual Christian? Does a Christian community in a (relatively) free country having available to it proper means of protest do nothing?

Andreas, what question should we think about and answer first???
You have presented so many very interesting questions concerning our duties as christians that I feel we need a separate thread for this.

Don't you find it strange that a minority of only 3% in England is causing so much trouble? Do we turn the other cheek? Is being tolerant of Islam really a case of "turning the other cheek"?

Here in Greece and in other countries in this area we are well aware of what Islam is. Read this please : http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

For the sake of accuracy and for those who do not know the history of this region I should say that Smyrna was Greek in the past and its Christian inhabitants spoke Greek and considered themselves Greeks when the area was placed under Greek control.

Having said the above, we need to respect other religions.

"
Today many Orthodox Christians live in societies of cultural, linguistic and religious pluralism. This has cultivated and nourished a deeply-felt attitude of respect, tolerance and understanding toward other people and their religions. The Orthodox Church has no official pronouncement on this matter. However, the long-standing tradition of respect and tolerance for other faiths is well stated by Archbishop Anastasios: "Being created in the image of God, every human being is our brother and sister."[33]

Truth makes reference to the knowledge of being. Tolerance "Implies a certain relationship of religious faith with truth in every concrete manifestation in the world, whether national, political or sociological."[34] The source of all truth is God the Creator, who gives existence to all beings. "God is the originator and the human being is the receiver."[35]

It is a strongly-held Orthodox view that our commitment to Christian Truth affirms a pluralistic, democratic setting where all people can live in peace and harmony. Holding fast to the truth of Christianity, Orthodoxy defends the right of all religious expressions to co-exist harmoniously, in a setting of freedom, where equal protection is afforded to all under the law. "

The above is from http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/ar...rticle8089.asp


Surely, though we can expect this same respect for ours. Would we enter an Islamic mosque to pray? Isn't being forced to listen to the Islamic call for prayers five times a day, an insidious way for Muslims to spread their faith and even perhaps to show their contempt for the Christian countries they are now living in. I'm not comparing but a little caution is not amiss. Are Christian churches allowed to ring their bells once a week in Muslim countries?

This is a translation of what we would hear over loudspeakers if this practice were permitted by law :

TRANSLATION OF THE
CALL TO PRAYER
God is most great. God is most great.
God is most great. God is most great.
I testify that there is no God except God.
I testify that there is no God except God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Come to prayer! Come to prayer!
Come to success! Come to success!
God is most great. God is most great.
There is none worthy of worship except God.

From the above quote from http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/ar...rticle8089.asp

"Holding fast to the truth of Christianity, Orthodoxy defends the right of all religious expressions to co-exist harmoniously, in a setting of freedom, where equal protection is afforded to all under the law. "

"Equal protection is afforded to all under the law" is, I think, what we all want.

[Charryith]

Dear Effie,

I want to find time to look at all you have posted but I think you are right that we should start a thread called, 'Turning the other cheek', or, perhaps something else such as, 'Orthodox Christians in society'. The tension between apparently clear injunctions from Our Lord and how we respond to many situations in society which cause us to consider our proper response in the light of Christ's injunctions seems to me important for us to consider and is likely to become more pressing. Do we use laws such as the blaspheny laws if our faith is reviled? (The law of blasphemy in England only applies to the Church of England, though.) Do we make use of civil and human rights in situations such as that at Oxford? Some years ago, I saw a Christmas card on sale which I thought was blasphemous. I asked Fr Zacharias how to respond and he said, we do not respond - we are not fanatics. That, however, was before 2001.

[Vobomei]

I don't think this needs to be a 'religious freedom' issue. I presume the practice should be banned on the simple basis of noise polution, no?

Its the 21st century. Why not have the minaret call on their cell phones instead?

-Shawn

PS: "It is a strongly-held Orthodox view that our commitment to Christian Truth affirms a pluralistic, democratic setting where all people can live in peace and harmony. Holding fast to the truth of Christianity, Orthodoxy defends the right of all religious expressions to co-exist harmoniously, in a setting of freedom, where equal protection is afforded to all under the law. " Surely, this is a seriously revisionist statement? The Orthodox have never believed in religious pluralism, hence all the persecution they (we?) have wrought on dissident groups through the centuries and today.

[acceraStoof]

I don't think this needs to be a 'religious freedom' issue. I presume the practice should be banned on the simple basis of noise polution, no?

Its the 21st century. Why not have the minaret call on their cell phones instead?

-Shawn

PS: "It is a strongly-held Orthodox view that our commitment to Christian Truth affirms a pluralistic, democratic setting where all people can live in peace and harmony. Holding fast to the truth of Christianity, Orthodoxy defends the right of all religious expressions to co-exist harmoniously, in a setting of freedom, where equal protection is afforded to all under the law. " Surely, this is a seriously revisionist statement? The Orthodox have never believed in religious pluralism, hence all the persecution they (we?) have wrought on dissident groups through the centuries and today.

"The Orthodox have never believed in religious pluralism, hence all the persecution they (we?) have wrought on dissident groups through the centuries and today.[/QUOTE]

Shawn, could you give me some examples?

Effie

[Charryith]

Effie wrote: Having said the above, we need to respect other religions. I have no respect for other religions. How can I respect falsehood? What I respect is the freedom of people to choose and practise, within the law, any religion.

The Orthodox have never believed in religious pluralism, hence all the persecution they (we?) have wrought on dissident groups through the centuries and today. I'm trying to think where the Orthodox Church persecutes other faiths. True, Protestant sects are hindered in Russia. But there is a mosque within St Catherine's monastery at Sinai, and the Hala Sultan Tekkesi at Larnaca has remained available to Muslims notwithstanding Muslim desecration of churches and monasteries in the occupied north of Cuprus. Christ commisioned His disciples to preach the Gospel to the whole world and make disciples of all men. I assume 'make' does not mean by force. I have posed this question before: as citizens, are we required to tolerate other faiths? - as Orthodox, are we pleased if, in Russia, the Church is favoured and Protestant groups are hindered? Muslims are, presumably, pleased that in countries such as Saudi Arabia, only Islam is allowed.

[finnmontserrat]

For my part, I am not uplifted by hearing 'God is great' from those (and I'm talking about the fanatics we see on our TV screens) who think I'm an infidel, may want to kill me, and whose brethren elsewhere persecute Christians.

I understand your sentiments. But then I'd have to take down all the posters and banners and the like put up by low-church Protestants who think we're non-Christian idol worshippers, and who send their missionaries into countries where Christians are predominantly Orthodox, leading them away from the Church and often egging on the very Muslim persecution you speak of.

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to hear the adhan on the streets of Europe, but it would be because of the prejudice Alex speaks of - my not wanting a stronger Muslim presence here - and not because I find the adhan any more offensive than the worldly music, speech, pictures, videos, etc. that I'm bombarded with on a daily basis (compared to which I find it uplifting).

[9mm_fan]

Islam survived for centuries without loudspeakers. They are not "essential" to Muslim faith. If they want to put someone in a minaret to sing loudly (in a natural unamplified voice), I would not gainsay them.

My only reaction is to think that we can talk about permitting loudspeakers for Muslims when church bells are permitted in Mecca. Until then, I don't see the point.

Just a simple thought from a simple mind.

Herman

[Vobomei]

Dear Effie,

Take a fairly recent example such as the battle fought over the antiproselytism statute in Greece, (http://www.cesnur.org/conferences/ri...montgomery.htm).

In Him,
Shawn

[acceraStoof]

Effie wrote:

I have no respect for other religions. How can I respect falsehood? What I respect is the freedom of people to choose and practise, within the law, any religion.



.

I'm sorry Andreas. This is what I meant when I said I respect other religions. Each person has the right to believe whatever he wants. Can you imagine a world where even our thoughts are controlled by various laws?

Effie