[vTLWqa1l]

The BBC News website - [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm - today has an article about a 54 year-old woman teacher who was teaching a class of six-seven year-olds in Sudan (using a British curriculum). The teacher invited the children to give a name to a teddy bear; 20 out of 23 in the class wanted to call the bear 'Muhammad'. In allowing this, the teacher has been arrested and could get 6 months in jail, 40 lashes or a fine. The school has been closed for fear of reprisals and the British Embassy fears for the teacher's safety. Oh, for the days of Palmerston and gunboats!

[w4HPpbSW]

The BBC News website - [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm - today has an article about a 54 year-old woman teacher who was teaching a class of six-seven year-olds in Sudan (using a British curriculum). The teacher invited the children to give a name to a teddy bear; 20 out of 23 in the class wanted to call the bear 'Muhammad'. In allowing this, the teacher has been arrested and could get 6 months in jail, 40 lashes or a fine. The school has been closed for fear of reprisals and the British Embassy fears for the teacher's safety. Oh, for the days of Palmerston and gunboats!

This does not help the world to think of Muhammad as a cuddly individual! What are they thinking? Seems like they want to engender fear not love.

InXC,
Seraphim

[vTLWqa1l]

One child in this teacher's class said he named the teddy bear 'Muhammed' because that was his name. However, the teacher has been sentenced to 15 days in jail and deportion thereafter; Muslim clerics asserted that the teacher was part of a western plot against Islam. Not very secure in their faith, then, are they? British Muslims, to their credit, are outraged at the matter.

[vTLWqa1l]

This afternoon, thousands of protestors marched in Khartoum shouting for this teacher to be shot.

[finnmontserrat]

Never mind 15 days, the incitement to hatred laws in the UK carry up to 7(?) years in prison. Let's hope the requirements for constituting such an offence don't become as low here as they have in Sudan!

[vTLWqa1l]

Never mind 15 days, the incitement to hatred laws in the UK carry up to 7(?) years in prison. Let's hope the requirements for constituting such an offence don't become as low here as they have in Sudan!

They cannot. The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 came into force on 1 October 2007. (By a schedule, the Act amends the Public Order Act 1986.) The 2006 Act does indeed carry a maximum penalty on conviction of 7 years in prison. It extends to hatred of those with no belief and so covers atheists. An offence under the Act can be committed by a corporation, not just individuals. In contrast to what we hear of the Sudanese law, the 2006 Act requires that the offending behaviour must be 'threatening' and the hatred must be 'intended'. A prosecution may only be brought with the consent of the Attorney General. Furthermore, there is, in section 29J of the schedule to the Act, 'Protection of freedom of expression'. Section 29J reads:

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, critcism or expression of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system. I think that one of the causes of conflict between Islam and the West is that in the Islamic world (north Africa, Middle East, etc) there is a deeply-held view of 'respect' which does not exist in the West. After the Danish cartoons affair, one leading Muslim cleric said on the radio, 'we are entitled to respect': in the West, you are not, as section 29J makes clear, and you have to accept the rough and tumble of a multiplicity of ideas, some of which may cause deep offence.

[boXGWf04]

I think that one of the causes of conflict between Islam and the West is that in the Islamic world (north Africa, Middle East, etc) there is a deeply-held view of 'respect' which does not exist in the West. After the Danish cartoons affair, one leading Muslim cleric said on the radio, 'we are entitled to respect': in the West, you are not, as section 29J makes clear, and you have to accept the rough and tumble of a multiplicity of ideas, some of which may cause deep offence.

It is the opposite of humility. It isn't about giving respect, but demanding it...or else!

[Abebpabeniemo]

I am not supporting the reaction of the Moslems. But why did this woman not know that this was an insult. Was she totally ignorant of Islam etc...? You don't go to a moslem country and use the name of their prophet lightly.

[MP+4]

If the teacher is getting 15 days imprisonmet, then what are the kids getting sice their the guilty party?

And by the way, why would a british teacher even want to go teach in Sudan? Is she one of those bleeding heart liberals?

[DianaDrk]

It is the opposite of humility. It isn't about giving respect, but demanding it...or else!

Dear All,

Let us remember that happily our Church did not participate in the crusades. It is clear the Muslims cannot be criticised for feeling the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan by Christian countries as a sort of resurgence of the crusades and the colonial era. It would be comforting to say that Orthodox nations are not involved, but Russian behaviour in Chechenia seems pretty awful. This in no way justifies what the Sudanese have done, but can anything justify the behaviour of the British towards Muslims? Kids being called 'paki bastard' on thair way to school, for example.
A lot of you have had contact with Muslims, and know that most of them are good people, who for cultural reasons believe something different from us. If those British citizens who saw fit to blow themselves up in London on July 7th had the necessary hatred to do so, then at least a part of the blame is attached to the arrogance of the government, which while playing lip-service to anti-inflammatory speech, has invaded Muslim countries and intervened in Muslim affairs. A Muslim family was raided by armed police in East London, and one of them was shot, for seemingly no other reason than that they were Muslim. The government foments fear among us by constant reference to some sort of unspecified Muslim plot. With a few blips - Bosnia, Chechenia come to mind - our church has strived to live well with Muslim neighbours.
I meet Muslims on a regular basis, and most of them are humble, tolerant, law-abiding people. Let's use our faith to improve ourselves, not to 'dis' (sorry Fr. Matthew, but I rather like this expression I learnt from my nephews and nieces on a trip to the UK) others.
Intolerant of intolerance, Simon

[boXGWf04]

Let's use our faith to improve ourselves, not to 'dis' (sorry Fr. Matthew, but I rather like this expression I learnt from my nephews and nieces on a trip to the UK) others.
Intolerant of intolerance, Simon

Dear Robert,

I made an observation regarding a particular way of thinking (namely, the demanding of respect) regardless of the source (Arab Muslims or the girl next door).

Since you quoted me, please allow me to point out that I was not denigrating any person or group of persons. Please note the "It" at the beginning of the quote. (inserting a here since you cannot hear my tone). I didn't even say "it" was wrong, but only pointed out "its" opposite.

And here is another so you can see I have no ill feelings toward you.

[immoceefe]

Whenever large migrations of people occur there is often conflict. In the U.S., there is a very strong movement led by La Raza (the Race) to take back the Southwestern United States for Mexico, i.e. territory that was stolen by the U.S. in the Mexican War of 1848. Likewise, there has been a huge Muslim migration into Western Europe and Britain and there is much talk of essentially taking over these countries from within through the sheer force of demography. The fact that there are many good and decent Muslims in the world, and in Western Europe avoids the critical issue that many Muslim leaders intend this to be a way of ultimately taking over infidel countries, which is what Muslims are called upon to do.

The response on the part of liberal democracies is to be more open and tolerant in order to prove to ourselves and others just how superior our political and social system is, to the point of cultural suicide. In Britain, as local councils eventually are governed by Muslims, we will see Sharia laws imposed, and the national government is going to likely say, hey, we are tolerant of your intolerance to the degree that there will be no stopping point. What's wrong with Sharia law being imposed throughout Britain?

That some Pakistani kids are the subject of prejudice hardly seems to address the underlying problems that exist -- more a diversion. If you accuse someone of being bigoted, this usually ends all civilized discussion and debate.

I think at some point Britain, the U.S. and Western Europe are going to be forced to deport large numbers of Muslim activists and significantly alter their immigration laws. Every culture has a right to exist as long as it is not guilty of military aggression and outright barbarism. And the real cultural genocide going on here is by Muslims against Western political systems.

As for the Crusades and the Orthodox, well, the Orthodox have been forced to live peacefully within Muslim societies, at least those who were not slaughtered by the Muslims when they first took over. And while the Crusades represented all kinds of injustices, they were a response, at least to some degree, to violent Muslim conquests. It's more complicated than that of course, but it was precipitated by the Muslims prohibiting Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

What liberal Westerners do not understand is that Muslims see themselves as having had the greatest world empire in history, that this world empire was destroyed in the relatively short historical period of a hundred years, and they want it back. This is incomprehensible to the liberal Western mind which sees itself as having won a great victory over religious superstition and religious tyranny. They see this -- the process of secularization -- as the greatest event in history. As a consequence, Christianity has really no influence in the political/social sphere anymore, except on the extreme periphery, and Orthodoxy per se is not likely to have any influence at all on these events either. Which means, I think, that Orthodox believers need to learn how to deal in the world of realpolitique.

[DianaDrk]

Sorry, Linda, my apologies! I am not good at picking quotes, i.e. using the mouse, and so I rather took what first came to hand. Sorry again.
For what it's worth, or not worth, I was trying to make a general point about our Church's relations with other faiths. I sometimes feel that when members of other faiths excess by zeal, we tend to tar the entire faith with the same brush, forgetting that members of our own faith sometimes do the same.

My, I'm looking forward to Christmas, love, Simon

[vTLWqa1l]

Owen makes a number of important points. Western liberal tolerance should mean freedom of conscience and faith for all. It should not mean - but is in danger of meaning (in the UK, at least) - being so accommodating that a particluarly aggressive grouping is allowed to gain a degree of prevalence quite disproportionate to its numbers: one would hardly realise that Muslims are still no more than 3% of the UK population. But this is, no doubt, as Owen says, the consequence of secularisation so that our society sees nothing to defend save its liberal tolerance.

[popsicesHoupe]

I am not supporting the reaction of the Moslems. But why did this woman not know that this was an insult. Was she totally ignorant of Islam etc...? You don't go to a moslem country and use the name of their prophet lightly.

From what I'd read, apparently they weren't trying to name it after their prophet, but after one of the boys in class who is named Muhammed. Nobody in class really thought about it.

BTW, sanity finally prevailed - the teacher is getting pardoned after a couple of Muslim representatives from Britain's House of Lords intervened.

Mike

[Zesavenue]

Dear Owen,

An interesting post, and two things occur to me.

Firstly, yes we could do with a good 'dose' of Sharia law in Britain. Maybe then we would see a huge reduction in binge drinking, drug dealing, fornication as a hobby amongst young people (and the highest teenage pregnancy rate in europe), 200,000 abortions each year, multiple adultery as a life-style choice, an ever rising tide of crime of every sort that the Government seems powerless to control and sleaze and corruption in Government at every level.

But, if we did have a Muslim Government could we also accept the 'bad bits' of Sharia law e.g. the poor rape victim in Saudi Arabia who has been sentenced to 200 lashes.

Secondly, could we co-exist in peace? I have a couple of Muslim colleagues who tell me that we (Orthodox) are regarded as 'People of The Book', but not so other Christian groups, particularly RCs, whom they have not forgiven for the Crusades and who are seen as some sort of recent splinter-group !

But maybe I'm being naive ?

Whenever large migrations of people occur there is often conflict. In the U.S., there is a very strong movement led by La Raza (the Race) to take back the Southwestern United States for Mexico, i.e. territory that was stolen by the U.S. in the Mexican War of 1848. Likewise, there has been a huge Muslim migration into Western Europe and Britain and there is much talk of essentially taking over these countries from within through the sheer force of demography. The fact that there are many good and decent Muslims in the world, and in Western Europe avoids the critical issue that many Muslim leaders intend this to be a way of ultimately taking over infidel countries, which is what Muslims are called upon to do.

The response on the part of liberal democracies is to be more open and tolerant in order to prove to ourselves and others just how superior our political and social system is, to the point of cultural suicide. In Britain, as local councils eventually are governed by Muslims, we will see Sharia laws imposed, and the national government is going to likely say, hey, we are tolerant of your intolerance to the degree that there will be no stopping point. What's wrong with Sharia law being imposed throughout Britain?

That some Pakistani kids are the subject of prejudice hardly seems to address the underlying problems that exist -- more a diversion. If you accuse someone of being bigoted, this usually ends all civilized discussion and debate.

I think at some point Britain, the U.S. and Western Europe are going to be forced to deport large numbers of Muslim activists and significantly alter their immigration laws. Every culture has a right to exist as long as it is not guilty of military aggression and outright barbarism. And the real cultural genocide going on here is by Muslims against Western political systems.

As for the Crusades and the Orthodox, well, the Orthodox have been forced to live peacefully within Muslim societies, at least those who were not slaughtered by the Muslims when they first took over. And while the Crusades represented all kinds of injustices, they were a response, at least to some degree, to violent Muslim conquests. It's more complicated than that of course, but it was precipitated by the Muslims prohibiting Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

What liberal Westerners do not understand is that Muslims see themselves as having had the greatest world empire in history, that this world empire was destroyed in the relatively short historical period of a hundred years, and they want it back. This is incomprehensible to the liberal Western mind which sees itself as having won a great victory over religious superstition and religious tyranny. They see this -- the process of secularization -- as the greatest event in history. As a consequence, Christianity has really no influence in the political/social sphere anymore, except on the extreme periphery, and Orthodoxy per se is not likely to have any influence at all on these events either. Which means, I think, that Orthodox believers need to learn how to deal in the world of realpolitique.

[DianaDrk]

Whenever large migrations of people occur there is often conflict. In the U.S., there is a very strong movement led by La Raza (the Race) to take back the Southwestern United States for Mexico, i.e. territory that was stolen by the U.S. in the Mexican War of 1848. Likewise, there has been a huge Muslim migration into Western Europe and Britain and there is much talk of essentially taking over these countries from within through the sheer force of demography. The fact that there are many good and decent Muslims in the world, and in Western Europe avoids the critical issue that many Muslim leaders intend this to be a way of ultimately taking over infidel countries, which is what Muslims are called upon to do.

The response on the part of liberal democracies is to be more open and tolerant in order to prove to ourselves and others just how superior our political and social system is, to the point of cultural suicide. In Britain, as local councils eventually are governed by Muslims, we will see Sharia laws imposed, and the national government is going to likely say, hey, we are tolerant of your intolerance to the degree that there will be no stopping point. What's wrong with Sharia law being imposed throughout Britain?

That some Pakistani kids are the subject of prejudice hardly seems to address the underlying problems that exist -- more a diversion. If you accuse someone of being bigoted, this usually ends all civilized discussion and debate.

I think at some point Britain, the U.S. and Western Europe are going to be forced to deport large numbers of Muslim activists and significantly alter their immigration laws. Every culture has a right to exist as long as it is not guilty of military aggression and outright barbarism. And the real cultural genocide going on here is by Muslims against Western political systems.

As for the Crusades and the Orthodox, well, the Orthodox have been forced to live peacefully within Muslim societies, at least those who were not slaughtered by the Muslims when they first took over. And while the Crusades represented all kinds of injustices, they were a response, at least to some degree, to violent Muslim conquests. It's more complicated than that of course, but it was precipitated by the Muslims prohibiting Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

What liberal Westerners do not understand is that Muslims see themselves as having had the greatest world empire in history, that this world empire was destroyed in the relatively short historical period of a hundred years, and they want it back. This is incomprehensible to the liberal Western mind which sees itself as having won a great victory over religious superstition and religious tyranny. They see this -- the process of secularization -- as the greatest event in history. As a consequence, Christianity has really no influence in the political/social sphere anymore, except on the extreme periphery, and Orthodoxy per se is not likely to have any influence at all on these events either. Which means, I think, that Orthodox believers need to learn how to deal in the world of realpolitique.

Dear Brethren, I read today that a Muslim girl in England, after spending five months in custody, and then being subjected to house arrest, has been sentenced to a nine month suspended sentence for writing poetry. I quote the following comment: Muhammed Abdul Bari, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he did not think her actions were a criminal matter. "Many young people download objectionable material from the Internet, but it seems if you are a Muslim then this could lead to criminal charges, even if you have absolutely no intention to do harm to anyone else.

"Samina's so-called poetry was certainly offensive but I don't believe this case should really have been a criminal matter. Young people may well have some silly thoughts. That should not be criminalised. It is their actions that we should be concerned about." Unquote.

Anyone interested to read about the whole sorry matter can go to today's Guardian.(www.guardian.co.uk)

Simon