[GrileVege]

Dear Brethren!

Thank you Father for these words!

The things in Moscow happened while they didn't obey law. Give the emperor what is emperor's and give and so on... They try this so often to do it and it ends up every time the same mess.

God gave us sex to enjoy it in our houses and not on the street. And the Lord don't loves anybody while he or she has a different access towards sex, no he loves them also just the same as he loves me, you and the Saint next door.
But carrying your intimacy on the the streets and offending your neighbours or anybody else with this, that probably is a sin.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[jeaccatty]

To tag on, a little bit to Fr Raphael's comments;

It is necessary to look at the purpose of the law. In the scripture, we learn that the law was given in order to reveal sin. Without the law, sin remains hidden. The problem with this is that sin is not simply the transgression of a regulation, but it is an act of spiritual self-multilation. Sin wounds the soul. Without the law, we would go on wounding ourselves without knowing it or without knowing how to avoid it and we would be carrying around festering wounds in the soul without the knowledge or opportunity to treat them. Thus the law, then points out what is "safe" behavior (what the law prescribes) and what is "risky" or self-injurious behavior (what the law proscribes). Therefore the fact that homosexuality is "against the law" in Christian cultures as well as many other cultures would indicate that it is a spiritually harmful practice. Homosexual behavior is not about societal norms, but about the harm that it does to the soul. A person may object that they do not perceive this harm directly, however, the purpose of the law is to bring this unperceived harm into our awareness and point it out.

An objection might be made here that the above would refer only to the "law of God" and not to the secular laws of man (which would then begin an argument about whether the laws concerning sexual practice are actually divine prohibitions or simply the result of cultural norms and mores). Therefore, it is necessary to look at the role and purpose of civil authority and "secular" law. In the west, we have an idea that government is "of the people" - in other words that the secular/civil authority derives its mandate to govern and authority to govern from the people. However this is not at all the scriptural model. The secular rulers, according to the Biblical model are given their authority and mandate by God. Let us look at the people of God - the Hebrews of the OT. They were led first by the Patriarchs - they did not choose Abraham and his lineage as their rulers - Abraham was called by God and given the authority to "rule" as Patriarch by God Himself. In Egypt, Moses was not elected but chosen and appointed by God, to lead the people - so also with Joshua. After the return to the promised land, the judges were chosen and raised up not by the people, but by God. When the people called for a king, they did not "elect" a monarch and put him forward, but rather they asked God to give them a king. The scriptural and historical model of civil government is that it is appointed by and draws its authority from God - not from the people. This "top down" model of government is confirmed in the NT by Jesus Christ (render unto Ceaser that which is Ceasar's) and again by the Apostle Paul (Rom 13:1).

With this in mind, then the question arises, what is the purpose of the laws promulgated then by the civil authority? As the Apostle indicates in Rom 13:4, the government is in place as God's minister. The purpose of civil government is to create and maintain an orderly peaceful society. The benefit and goal of this society is to provide an environment in which one can most easily work out one's salvation. Thus those laws against things which are prohibited by the civil authority are there, in one manner or another, for the purpose of eliminating from society those practices and influences which are spiritually destructive. When a civil government forgets this purpose or when it no longer fulfills this purpose then it is in danger of judgment, not from the people, but from God (which btw rules out revolution as a spiritually sound practice - vengeance is mine saith the Lord). When the civil government abuses its God-given authority, or neglects its true purpose and begins sanctioning that which is spiritually harmful, it is removed by God. (Also according to the Church's interpretation of the purpose of the Russian revolution, when the people no longer appreciate or submit to a God given government, then they are deprived of that government by God and given over for judgment in order to bring about repentance and return them to following the path of salvation)

Warning - here I begin a personal rant, so please just stop here or if you do read this feel free to ignore or discount it at your leisure. If I happen to offend anyone, I apologize in advance - please feel free to let me know by PM how I am in error

Russia is struggling to regain its identity as an Orthodox Christian state. Unfortunately much of the rest of the world is either immersed in Islamic totalitarianism or in the worship of the "individual" and the "mob rule" of democracy(T. Jefferson's term I think). Both of these are antithetical to an Orthodox government and thus Russia stands alone in the world in trying to bring back the Orthodox state.

Fr David Moser

[vTLWqa1l]

I'm not a scholar of jurisprudence but this is a fascinating area of enquiry. In the western world, there has been the displacement of moral certainty and common moral values and the introduction of what is commonly called moral relativism but which is probably more correctly moral pluralism. It must be a trite observation that our current condition has grown from the spread of ideas of the (so-called) Enlightenment and the decline of religion. The idea that the state could legislate (in the broadest sense) merely to preserve itself in accordance with what the legislators (really, the executive and the judiciary) perceived to be the moral foundation of the state was abandoned about forty years ago. Our views on matters such as homosexual activity and abortion, which views were, until forty years ago or so, widely held and supported by law, are now peripheral and even pejoratively labelled 'fundamentalist'. Our current condition is supposedly valid because it is presented in terms of rights and democracy. Furthermore, it is assumed that this condition is universally applicable.

[Jannet.K]

I'm not a scholar of jurisprudence but this is a fascinating area of enquiry. In the western world, there has been the displacement of moral certainty and common moral values and the introduction of what is commonly called moral relativism but which is probably more correctly moral pluralism. It must be a trite observation that our current condition has grown from the spread of ideas of the (so-called) Enlightenment and the decline of religion. The idea that the state could legislate (in the broadest sense) merely to preserve itself in accordance with what the legislators (really, the executive and the judiciary) perceived to be the moral foundation of the state was abandoned about forty years ago. Our views on matters such as homosexual activity and abortion, which views were, until forty years ago or so, widely held and supported by law, are now peripheral and even pejoratively labelled 'fundamentalist'. Our current condition is supposedly valid because it is presented in terms of rights and democracy. Furthermore, it is assumed that this condition is universally applicable.

Good LHM, homosexuality is *not* a "moral" issue, its a psychological issue between the homosexual person, the person they are attracted to, and God. Please for the love of God, stop judging!
Olympiada

[Asianunta]

God gave us sex to enjoy it in our houses and not on the street. And the Lord don't loves anybody while he or she has a different access towards sex, no he loves them also just the same as he loves me, you and the Saint next door.
But carrying your intimacy on the the streets and offending your neighbours or anybody else with this, that probably is a sin.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

This couple should read this post.

[vTLWqa1l]

Good LHM, homosexuality is *not* a "moral" issue, its a psychological issue between the homosexual person, the person they are attracted to, and God. Please for the love of God, stop judging!
Olympiada Dear Olympiada,

I'm not sure what you mean. My post you quote was making a point of jurisprudence, not of moral judgement of homosexual activity. As I have said earlier, there is no difference between homosexual activity and other forms of sexual activity which are sinful according to the teaching of the Church. I have also been careful to distinguish homosexual activity from homosexuality which, as a condition, is not condemned. There is a difference between sexual activity, of any sort which is condemned by the Church, which is engaged in wilfully, and some sexual disposition (not only homosexuality) with which a person struggles, perhaps not always successfully, but struggles nonetheless, acknowledging their sin (if they are Christian). I'm not clear which part of my post caused you to respond as you have. Do we not, as Orthodox Christians, regret (if that is the right term) the increase over the last forty years in sexual licence of all kinds, and in abortions?

[jeaccatty]

Good LHM, homosexuality is *not* a "moral" issue, its a psychological issue between the homosexual person, the person they are attracted to, and God.

This is not true. Homosexuality is indeed a "moral" issue - no less than heterosexuality and gluttony and any kind of passionate excess. True, one should not judge the sinner - even in "moral issues" however it is certainly necessary to reject the sin. "Psychology" is a secular discipline that at best only treats the symptoms of our spiritual illness. In the Church, "psychology" is simply one tool among many (and not necessarily the best tool).

Morality is a spiritual issue and psychology is a secular discipline.

Fr David Moser

[gopsbousperie]

A butt-in again amidst all this discussion (i might get famous for these one day). Book recommendation for anyone interested. Christian Faith and Same-sex Attraction 'Eastern Orthodox Reflections' by Thomas Hopko. This book covers everything from dealing with this passion to Pastoral advice. I am sure its been mentioned before somewhere along the way but I thought to mention it for those in this discussion who might not have known of it.

http://www.marshillaudio.org/resourc...cle.asp?id=142

on with the discussion....

In Christ
~Karena

[jurhoonee]

"Psychology" is a secular discipline that at best only treats the symptoms of our spiritual illness. In the Church, "psychology" is simply one tool among many (and not necessarily the best tool).

Morality is a spiritual issue and psychology is a secular discipline.

Fr David Moser

I like this thought Father David. Thanks!

[vTLWqa1l]

Nina Quotation:
Originally Posted by nicolaj
God gave us sex to enjoy it in our houses and not on the street. And the Lord don't loves anybody while he or she has a different access towards sex, no he loves them also just the same as he loves me, you and the Saint next door.
But carrying your intimacy on the the streets and offending your neighbours or anybody else with this, that probably is a sin.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

This couple should read this post. There was no picture!

[GrileVege]

There was no picture!

I also looked it up and NO PICTURE! But better no picture as to spoil the eyes by sin!

Thanks Karena for the tip on Father Hopko's book.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj