[Ekrbcbvh]

This is the headline on today's edition of 'The Times'. The article says almost half of British mosques are controlled by the Deobandi sect which supports the Taleban, hates western society, and has contempt for the kuffar [non-believers], which include Jews, Christians, Hindus and atheists, with none of whom a Muslim should associate. A list of western habits is given which are 'evil'. The list includes applause (clapping) which is described as 'pagan'. The Christian 'mass', since it involves eating and drinking the flesh and blood of 'Issa', is described as 'mumbo-jumbo'.

Rather curiously, the Royal College of Music has a special mention: it is said to be 'satanic'.

Realistically, it would have to be accepted that the prospects for explaining the Christian faith persuasively in four sentences in such circles are limited.

[Abebpabeniemo]

I hear that the British Government is suggesting that non-Moslems should not participate in working lunches out of respect for these hardliners - i.e. during Ramadan.

[Seiblybiozy]

Will there be reciprocation for Rosh Hashanah or Christmas?

I think not.

[Zesavenue]

A leading muslim cleric in the UK has said recently that global jihad will not stop until everyone in the world has embraced Islam, even if it takes a thousand years, and that they will do this by the sword if necessary. All that that attitude is going to produce is a global war between the 'Christian West' and the 'Islamic East' on a massive scale (and it may already have started ?).

But I have mixed feelings about muslims in the UK. On a day-to-day level, they are living in a country which has some of the highest levels in Europe of promiscuity, teenage pregnancy, abortion, drug-taking, binge drinking and crime, and where homosexuality is actively promoted and celebrated by the Goverment. Indeed one cleric, Abu Hamza, described Britain recently as a "toilet".

And so I feel sorry for them in that sense, but they must not be allowed to promote Islam by violence, in either words or deeds, and one letter to the Times in response to the article has already called for many dozens of these Deobandi mosques to be closed and their funds seized.

Actually, it behoves us as Christians to do a lot more than we are doing at the moment to combat all of the above societal evils, and perhaps the time has come for us to be as strident as UK muslims ?

[9mm_fan]

and perhaps the time has come for us to be as strident as UK muslims ? STRIDENT: a harsh noise, having a shrill irritating quality or character.

To become more motivated and concerned with our neighbors and dedicated to Christ, certainly, but I think I would use a different word than "strident". It was not by being "strident" that the Church survived the persecutions of Pagan Rome, the Ottomans, the communists and now militant Islam. It was through Faith, patience, martyrdom, and love that the Church has always endured.

So, as for me, I don't think we should become like UK muslims. But that might just be me.

Herman the Pooh

[12Cickprior]

my spiritual father says that in the West Islam will suffer the fate of all other religious groups... secularism. No one has been able to escape consumerism untouched. It is truly the way towards anti-Christ.

[Zesavenue]

Andreas,

You probably saw, also, the article in yesterdays Times by Martin Amis who says that radical Islam should be regared in "the same way as other death cults such as nazism and bolshevism."

[Ekrbcbvh]

Herman has a point - we are not fanatics. Let us be known for our difference from Muslim extremists.

[Stengapsept]

Actually, it behoves us as Christians to do a lot more than we are doing at the moment to combat all of the above societal evils, and perhaps the time has come for us to be as strident as UK muslims ? Actually it behoves us as Christians to love those who despitefully use us, forgive those who sin against us, and to turn the other cheek; that would, indeed, be doing a lot more than we do now, and would be a better way of witnessing to the injunctions of the founder of Christianity.

I'm with Herman on this one.

In Him,

John

[popsicesHoupe]

Actually, it behoves us as Christians to do a lot more than we are doing at the moment to combat all of the above societal evils, and perhaps the time has come for us to be as strident as UK muslims ? Say "as focused" or "as committed" instead of "as strident", and I'll agree. Stridency fits the weapons of their warfare, but not the weapons of our warfare. I'm with Herman and John on this.

Militant Muslims cry out in the streets, carry the sword, and hate with great enthusiasm. Let us cry out in prayer, carry our cross, and love with great enthusiasm.

In Christ,
Mike

[Zesavenue]

John,

Whilst turning the other cheek is an admirable thing to do, indeed Jesus always did when someone struck him, we should not confuse that with a reluctance to take tough action against the evils in society. Indeed, Jesus also gave the moneylenders in the Temple a good hiding (and took a whip to them if I remember).

Keeping our heads down and quietly getting on with our comfortable lives is not an answer. For example, almost 200,000 (yes, that is two-hundred thousand) unborn babies are murdered in England and Wales every year, over 6000,000 (yes, that is six million) since 1967. And what do we do about it ? The Catholics have their 'Life' and SPUC organisations that hold street demonstrations, lobby parliament and picket abortion clinics. A couple of years ago it took an Anglican curate to take the Crown Prosecution Service to the High Court over their failure to prosecute two doctors who had carried out an illegal abortion, but we do what exactly ?

Yes, is is time we started to shout, and very loudly indeed.

For evil to triumph it is only necessary........well, you all know the rest.

[Seiblybiozy]

When will Christ return? paraphrased...When there are no more Godly men. So, it seems Islam will take over the world in order for our Lord to return.

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

[9mm_fan]

Keeping our heads down and quietly getting on with our comfortable lives is not an answer. For example, almost 200,000 (yes, that is two-hundred thousand) unborn babies are murdered in England and Wales every year, over 6000,000 (yes, that is six million) since 1967. And what do we do about it ? The Catholics have their 'Life' and SPUC organisations that hold street demonstrations, lobby parliament and picket abortion clinics. A couple of years ago it took an Anglican curate to take the Crown Prosecution Service to the High Court over their failure to prosecute two doctors who had carried out an illegal abortion, but we do what exactly ? WWJD?

Nobody here is saying "live our comfortable lives". Indeed if our lives are too comfortable, we, as Christians, are doing something wrong. Who ever heard of a comfortable cross?

But does that mean we must demonstrate in the streets stridently? Where is that in the Beatitudes? I think I missed it. We are commanded to love, to help, to feed, to visit, to clothe. Have you already done all these things? Are these "lesser" things to do than being strident? There are many ministries. Do what what you believe God wants you to do. We will do what we think God wants us to do, or at least not do what God doesn't want us to do, to the best of our abilities. Is stridency a virtue?

Herman the Pooh

[Ekrbcbvh]

John (King) makes a point which always troubles me. Orthodoxy, in England at any rate, can appear selfish. We are a tiny little sect. We 'attend to ourselves' and work out our own salvation. Of course, St Seraphim said 'acquire the Holy Spirit and thousands around you will be saved' and we have to try to acquire the Holy Spirit by the resolute practice of our faith in the hope that this may be so. If we here lift up our heads from Monachos and our parishes, we can see that we are largely unknown. There is no mission, no good deeds in the wider community, and certainly no loud voice from the Orthodox Church. For example, there is controversy here over proposals to give cohabitants similar financial rights to the married on relationship breakdown. There are published reports from the RC Church and the C of E. Nothing from the Orthodox Church. It is often said that at the Judgment, we shall not be asked, did you perform all rites correctly etc, but, did you love as I have loved you? Did you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, comfort the broken-hearted? The Protestants seem better at this sort of thing than we. On the other hand, is this view underestimating the power of prayer and the grace that flows into our surroundings from the celebration of the Divine Liturgy? Is the mere presence of Orthodoxy a blessing and a benefit for our respective lands that we perhaps don't appreciate?

[acceraStoof]

Our martyrs died for our faith. In some countries there is a new rule that crosses are not to be worn. I feel that we need to fight to be able to live our faith the way we are supposed to. How can we do this? Not bowing our heads when we are discriminated against i.e. not being allowed to wear the cross, and finding the courage to speak out when we need to.

Muslims are already living in all the European countries and they usually have quite a lot of children. Most European countries have a problem with the very low number of babies being born and in a few years there might well be a majority of Muslims in some countries. This is not a problem as long as Muslims do not try to force their religion and their customs on the countries they have emigrated to.

Greece has already experienced the fanatical force of the Muslim world with the Ottoman Empire. Against all odds we kept our faith and our language and our traditions, in part because of the heroic part the church played during this terrible time.

I believe that only a small percentage of Muslims feel that their religion should prevail, but it is wise for these pseudo liberal governments to protect not only the immigrants and their religion but also the original inhabitants of a country and their religion.

[Zesavenue]

Andreas,

Of course Jesus and the Apostles fed the hungry, clothed the needy and ministered to the sick and so should we. It is practical love.

But Jesus and the Apostles were also 'tough guys', never afraid to speak out against injustices, never afraid of confrontation when coming to the aid of the oppressed, the downtrodden and the victims of wrongs.

When I see people such as the RC Cardinal O'Brien in national newspapers earlier this year, speaking out against abortion, in the strongest possible terms (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6706743.stm) I can only feel great admiration.

[Ekrbcbvh]

John, I'm sure we all agree with you.

[9mm_fan]

But Jesus and the Apostles were also 'tough guys', never afraid to speak out against injustices, never afraid of confrontation when coming to the aid of the oppressed, the downtrodden and the victims of wrongs. Well, I do recall that our Lord stopped the crowd from stoning the adulterous woman. But the rest is basically mythology from the "Liberation Jesus" theology of the 70s. Our Lord was the Savior, not some mere activist. He said "blessed are the poor in spirit", "blessed are the pure in heart". He didn't say "blessed are the tough guys who confront..."

[eFDMBwKH]

Keeping our heads down and quietly getting on with our comfortable lives is not an answer. For example, almost 200,000 (yes, that is two-hundred thousand) unborn babies are murdered in England and Wales every year, over 6000,000 (yes, that is six million) since 1967. And what do we do about it ? The Catholics have their 'Life' and SPUC organisations that hold street demonstrations, lobby parliament and picket abortion clinics. A couple of years ago it took an Anglican curate to take the Crown Prosecution Service to the High Court over their failure to prosecute two doctors who had carried out an illegal abortion, but we do what exactly ?

I agree with you, John. Orthodox in this country are numerically almost insignificant, and our influence is further diluted by the effects of jurisdictionalism, but what voice we do have should be added to the rest of those who oppose the destruction of what remains of our Christian culture.

I take some heart from the proposal of Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev to form a European Catholic-Orthodox Alliance.

This alliance may enable European Catholics and Orthodox to fight together against secularism, liberalism and relativism prevailing in modern Europe, may help them to speak with one voice in addressing secular society, may provide for them an ample space where they will discuss modern issues and come to common positions. The social and ethical teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are extremely close, in many cases practically identical. I have had a chance to compare the ‘Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church,’ published by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace in 2004, with the ‘Bases of the Social Doctrine of the Russian Orthodox Church,’ approved by the Bishops’ Council of the Moscow Patriarchate in 2000. There are so many striking similarities and so little difference. Why, then, should we not be able to reveal our unity on all these major issues urbi et orbi? http://insidethevatican.com/newsflas...apr24-05-2.htm

And, of course, while the SPUC is a predominantly Catholic organisation, there is nothing to stop an Orthodox, a protestant, or indeed anyone from being a supporter. I still am.