[P3bWjm1j]

Fr. David Moser, thank you for pointing out that pride leads to destruction. Pride is something to always watch out for in ourselves, that's for sure. I agree that some missionaries probably have that view of Orthodoxy, I also have to say many think Orthodoxy is okay, among other Christian churches and don't see that they lead anyone away from Orthodoxy by their message. They think they are just preaching Christ.

Mary, it makes sense to stop anyone from leading people away from The Church, but may I ask what specifically you think should be done to stop them? The reason I ask is that people who go to Orthodox countries don't go with a specific goal to de-orthodox anyone and when they get stopped, they portray it as Christian persecution, martyrdom if you will. I get emails like that all the time and read magazines that complain about religious freedom being shattered in Russia. They just draw more attention when someone tries to stop them. So what do you think we (or anyone) should do?

[VovTortki]

Gosh, my dear brothers and sisters, now I'm in over my head, talking about things that I know nothing about. Please be patient with me. I have to think through my response and PLEASE remember, I've been orthodox for less than a year and my experience in life and in missions is VERY limited. I speak only from what I have known and observed, and I'll admit, I've thought through the things I've seen and experienced, but I'm not a genius and I've been known to have very faulty thinking.

OK. That's the disclaimer. I'm working on a reply. You may not hear from me for a while (which may be a very good thing! )

In Christ,

Mary.

[VovTortki]

Hello everyone!

I'm back again. What a wonderful beginning to Lent! I can't get enough of the Great Canon of St Andrew. Heard it for the first time last year, and I thought it was powerful. This year, I don't have words to describe it anymore. It's totally unbelievable!

There's so much I want to say, but I'll stick to answering just a few questions and thoughts:

Mostly I have a doubt there because I am not sure what you mean. If folk mean that the law should be used to stop people sharing their faith then I disagree. If folk mean that these christians should be harrassed then I disagree. If folk mean that Orthodoxy should have a privileged position and be protected by laws which disadvantage other christians then I disagree.

Peter

Peter - I agree with you completely.

Let me see if I can explain what I was thinking of:

Since my mind is small I have to simplify, there may or may not be any parallels that apply to the Church as a whole. So, I'm just going to approach this from a very personal level - my family. We just left the protestant world, and the responses we've received from our friends have been quite varied. Some have no idea what we're talking about and aren't interested. Some think we've joined a cult and look at us like we've lost our minds, but they dont' want any clarifications. Others are curious and ask a few questions and seem satisfied when they understand that we've not joined a cult. Others are curious and listen intently and ask questions with eagerness. Still others ask no questions, assume we've been deceived and try to convert us back.

Now - I don't see any of them as wolves except possibly for the last group - who might turn into wolves. At what point do they turn into wolves? If they pretend to accept what we've accepted, but try to engage our children in debates and plant doubts into their hearts...which they may do with all sincerety - hoping there's still time to save our children from being doomed as they believe us to be doomed. If I find anyone doing this, I would politely ask them to question me and not my children. If they do not listen, I will turn them out of my house. I believe I have the responsibilty and the right to do so, in order to protect my children, who are now 8 and 5 yrs old. However, if my children are older, and at the age when they're testing things anyway, I wouldn't mind. They need to make the Faith their own, and that can't happen without testing. So, when they're older and wish to attend services at other churches, I will let them.

In an 'Orthodox' country - perhaps it is fear and ignorance (not just of the protestants, but also of our own Faith), that causes the Orthodox to oppose the new 'churches'.

Peter, i don't now if I've clarified my thoughts about 'stopping the wolves'. I spoke in anger when I posted the first message. I love orthodoxy the way it is. The things that seem external are so full of life when you live it from the Inside. I was enraged because he was taking that which is of endless beauty and life to me ( the icons) - and calling them art. Art? They speak to me, they breathe life into me, they bring me healing! They've touched the loneliest places of my heart. They're my family, they know me completely and they still love me, they weep over me and they pray for me. They are not just art!

I can't stop him from thinking whatever he wants, and he'll never understand the way I think now. He's a 'wolf' if he tells my children that the icons are just art, that the Traditions are just good habits, etc. He's probably good with words too, and can be very convincing. If he's willing to accept that there are things about our Tradition that he cannot understand, then he's not a wolf. If he's willing to let us treasure our Treasures and not make light of them, he is not a wolf. If he stays away from them, instead of pretending to accept them, he's not a wolf. I will respect him for his sincerety and honesty, and I'll pray that God will open his eyes so he too can share in the Treasures that we have been given.

It's just that - when I thought the Orthodox traditions where just external extras that had nothing to do with worship, I didn't mess with it. Let people worship the way they want to, it's none of my business. And then, when the emptiness in my life just wouldn't budge, I started asking questions. It seemed my theology was mostly solid, but my life was sorely lacking in meaningful activities. So I added to my protestant faith, the 'externals' from the orthodox church. I believed it would add meaning to my life, even though I didn't understand how. They certainly didn't seem to be harmful. So I started saying the Jesus prayer, I started fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays, I read about the saints, and finally, I even dared to ask the saints to pray for me. Yes, I tested the 'externals' but I did not mock them. They stood the test.

But I shouldn't judge how he uses the 'externals', for I do not know his heart. As long as he doens't try to 'steal' my children from me with fancy words, he can do what he wants.

Is it wrong for me to protect my children, till they are stronger? Of course, I can only protect them for so long. So I should work hard at making sure I carry out my responsibilities to them in the short time that I have. After that, I can only pray that they will remain faithful, that I will remain faithful...

John, I'll need to wait another day to answer your questions. I do have some thoughts, but like all of my thoughts, they're 'home-grown' and have no expertise and wisdom. I do appreciate your willingness to listen to me, as though I had anything worth saying. Thank you.

Mary.

[MP+4]

This is the product of freedom of religion, as interpreted by an arrogant western post-christian society.