[electmobile]

'The Times' front page today carries an article in which the British Pregnancy and Advisory Service (BPAS) is 'demanding' legal reforms to allow abortion on demand. Whilst it may seem here that abortion is available on demand, Britain is one of the very few European countries which does not actually have this. Nonetheless, there were 191,000 abortions in Britain last year. A poll shows that 59% of Britons favour abortion on demand; the chief executive of the BPAS said this showed public support for reform which would bring abortion laws 'in line with modern lifestyles'. Readers of 'The Times' are invited to vote on the question, 'Should abortion be available as a lifestyle choice?'

In most European countries, including Greece and Russia, abortion is available on demand and is used as the preferred method of contraception. One Greek priest I know insists that for this reason alone, Greece should not be called 'an Orthodox country'.

Andreas Moran.

[eocavrWM]

Dear brother in Christ, Andreas,

This thread is not unsimilar to the very relevant thread on 'Hatred'.

Despite the very clear, obvious position of our Holy Church on this, which echos the Commandment, 'Thou shall not kill' tragically I have become aware of the disregard of this loving commandment in the very countries where the majority of the population is Orthodox.

As our Lord said 'my Kingdom is not of this world' we have, in the most perverted way, proven his words true by our disobedience and selfishness and disrespect.

Why is it that in the countries where the majority of the population are of the Orthodox faith, we witness; rampant alcoholism, AIDS, divorce, spousal abuse, corruption every where you turn...it is more than enough to make you rip the hair from your head?

There are several answers to this, all of which fall short of the words of our Saviour and are poor excuses at the least. But I have heard them, so here they are:

i) Orthodoxy is the True Faith, therefore the Devil attacks this Church especially (this can be interpreted in a variety of ways).

ii) Orthodoxy has suffered continual persecution, under the Roman Empire, the rise of Islam, the dominance of the Ottoman Empire, the disarray after the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, the personality of the Tzar, the rise of the Bolsheviks, the betrayal of the Royal Family and their subsequent execution (was there ever a Third Rome?), Stalin, the Second World War, the 'utilisation of the Church' to thwart the advance of the Nazis

iii) I could go on with number ii, but now the big Devil is the EU. Especially the women who stand up in Brussels and demand that women be allowed on the Holy Mountain (I am not saying this is my position, rather this is what I have heard).

To this, allow me a few reflections: I do not agree with women being allowed entrance on the Holy Mountain - this is not out of disrespect for women, rather it is the continuation of fidelity to our traditon in monasticism - women do not wander around mens' monasteries, and men do not wander around womens' monasteries, also Mount Athos, Agion Oros, is the 'Perivoli tis Panagias', the Garden of the Virgin Mary.

One only has to spend some time there praying to understand this whether faintly or in its fullness.

To not belabour this post, I have to say this: We have brought it upon ourselves.

If we had ever been obedient and receptive to the words of our Lord, we would be humble, patient, forgiving, turn the other cheek, of the attitude to pray for our enemies, for those who despise us...why?

Because, in my opinion, if we turn our being towards our Saviour, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born of the Virgin Mary, we would bow our heads in shame and consider ourselves unworthy of the calling to which our Lord so desires: 'Be ye perfect as my Father in Heaven'.

We Orthodox find every possible excuse (except our own sin) for the tragedy that has befallen us.

When I first visited Greece in 1970, it was like Romania is today. Relatively agricultural, poor, very traditonal (like India was which I visited sometime later) that is to say, in the villages of Macedonia, they dressed differently and their accent was different than that found further south. Even Athens was a bus stop. One could breathe without chocking. Walking from Omonia to any other region in Athenai did not require an oxygen tank.

Then Greece 'discovered' tourism, one of the many distractions of our modern world.

After this Greece embraced the European Union. Monastics protested. Priests and laity alike were to be seen in Thessaloniki and Athenai protesting.

The 'nature' of money, the enormous influx of currency into Greece after reception into the European Union, proved itself to be an enormous temptation.

I remember the tremendous debates on the Holy Mountain. It almost came close to the question of the change in the Calendar of the Church.

Yet, what happened...after the fire of 1991, even though the Fathers had processed with Miracle-working Icons and the fire stopped on the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos, fallen human nature took over.

The donkeys were replaced by jeeps, the hand-made paths were bull-dozed to make roads, the Monasteries, in the majority voted in favour of receiving the influx of dracmas, and suddenly every where you turned there was noise.

Hesychia had to find shelter elsewhere.

Is Russia an Orthodox country, is Greece, Serbia, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, Georgia?...our Lord said His Kingdom is not of this world.

Was there ever truly, fully, an Orthodox Byzantium, after the schism between Rome and Constantinople, was there a 2nd Rome, and after the fall of Constantinople to Islam, was Kiev, then Moscow, the 3rd Rome?

Have we Orthodox ever really attempted to understand the clear, concise, simple words of our Lord?

Today, we live in incredible circumstances. If one can not weep for our own sin, then at least we can weep for the situations in Africa, and the former Soviet Bloc.

Why stop there...what about the wealth of Western Europe and North America? How will we stand before the Judgement when we got 'stressed' over the prices at Marks & Spencers, or at WalMart, to which we drove in a car owned by the bank, from our house owned by the bank.

Finally, it comes to me - was I faithful to Christ? By our hypostatic nature, is not my disregard for faithfulness to Christ, tantamount to betrayal of Christ and turning my back on humankind?

If abortion is so rampant, so legalized by our governments, exactly where did this all originate?

Fallen Adam (humankind) spurned each Covenant and cast Christ from his own village.

For this reason our Lord said: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) - (italics, mine)

Herein, lies the key to our repentance and salvation and to become in the image and likeness to which we have been re-called.

'The Staretz was a man of a single idea, but this idea is the most profound, the most beautiful, the most ontologically perfect there is, and - most importantly of all - he realised it in his own life. In certain passages he is indeed in spirit like to St. John the Divine. Indeed, the Holy Spirit made him like unto Christ Himself, Whom he was deemed worthy to behold, and of the resemblanceto Whom he so often spoke, quoting the words of the Great Apostle: 'We shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.' (1 John 3:2) - (Saint Silouan the Athonite, pp. 266-267)

[Theariwinna]

Quote: 'The Times' front page today carries an article in which the British Pregnancy and Advisory Service (BPAS) is 'demanding' legal reforms to allow abortion on demand.

I'm surprised it's taken so long for y'all to catch up.
Does anyone know what percentage of the world allows abortions?

[Seiblybiozy]

Hi Rebecca:
I did a search and found this site to answer your question. How very sad for us all.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/statist...statistics.asp
How long will God endure this generation? Lord come quickly.

[Stengapsept]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 17:2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

So says the Incarnate Lord.

Perhaps our compassion and charity has failed those who are driven to take this path; but, of course, in the west we have a society in which this can be seen as a 'life-style' choice; for the little ones there is no 'life'.

In Christ,

John

[Trikaduliana]

Hi John

And no choice either!

Peter

[texbrease]

In my case, it's been a little one - a sixteen-year old niece, to have an abortion. I only came to know of it later. I don't think it's the law that should decide - Christ was offered the chance to rule the world by the Devil, but refused - but the person involved. After all, you can't legislate against war or avarice, can you? Would I have adopted the baby? Can I condemn her? When her sister asked her what she wanted for her birthday, she said, "Something for my firstborn." Judge not.

[Stengapsept]

In my case, it's been a little one - a sixteen-year old niece, to have an abortion. I only came to know of it later. I don't think it's the law that should decide - Christ was offered the chance to rule the world by the Devil, but refused - but the person involved. After all, you can't legislate against war or avarice, can you? Would I have adopted the baby? Can I condemn her? When her sister asked her what she wanted for her birthday, she said, "Something for my firstborn." Judge not.

Dear Robert,

I hope that no one was judging anyone, indeed, I think that a reading of the posts here will show the opposite - compassion for those who find themselves in the situation that your niece found herself in should be bottomless; there can be no question of condemnation, it would be monstrous to add to the burden carried by a young woman in that situation.

The real question is whether abortion is the only available solution. Every local authority in the UK has a huge list of people who wish to foster very young children, and every Church I know has people more than happy to offer counsel and support to young women who are pregnant and do not know where to turn.

I am sorry if you gained the idea that anyone here was condemning any young woman, but I hope that if you reread the posts you will see that it was the sin, not the sinner, that was being condemned.


In Christ,

John

[electmobile]

But deserving of condemnation are those promote abortion as a 'lifestyle choice' and see nothing wrong in taking life which cannot speak for itself.

Andreas.

[freeprescriptionplanrrx]

.

In my case, it's been a little one - a sixteen-year old niece, to have an abortion. I only came to know of it later. I don't think it's the law that should decide If the child in the womb is a human life he/she deserves the same legal protection as any other person. The location of the person ( womb or outside womb) is really irrelevant. We have just as much right to outlaw the killing of the pre born as we do the killing of people who are already born.

I don't think it's the law that should decide If a person wants to kill another adult should that be legal? If not whats the difference between the two (in terms of the "personhood" of the victim) ?

Can I condemn her I don't think anyone is implying that. Our sins (all sins not just abortion ) condemn us we don't need others to do it for us. thankfully Christ is merciful and quick to forgive. Simply pointing out that "x" is a sin is not the same thing as "condemning" the people who commit "x". Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being* there is no way around that its not said to condemn anyone its just a fact. For those who disagree I beg you to just do a web search on " aborted baby pictures"** and see what abortion is first hand. You will know its murder when you see the results.

you can't legislate against war or avarice We could use that argument to legalize everything. Should theft also be a personal choice and would we be overstepping our bounds and trying to rule the world like the devil by outlawing it ?

*
St. Basil the Great:
"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. The hair-splitting difference between formed and unformed makes no difference to us".

St. Clement:
"Those who use abortificants commit homicide".

Canon XCI of the Orthodox Church:
"As for women who furnish drugs for the purpose of procuring abortions, and those who take fetus-killing poisons, they are made subject to penalty for murderers."

**
I can email some links to pages on the subject if anyone wants. They are very graphic so I dont want to link through here.

[freeprescriptionplanrrx]

Here is an explanation of the Icon I posted above along with a section of the "Service for Victims of Abortion"

The Icon explained

Christ our God (bearing the title "O ON" which means "He Who Is" in Greek) is seen looking down from Heaven. His right hand is extended towards the family depicted just below Him, in the characteristic form of blessing. The father of the family is seen supporting and playing with his beloved children, and the mother is seen offering care and the necessities of life.

At the bottom left of the Icon the patience and long-suffering of the unmarried mother who chose to support her baby and suffer hardship or social shame rather than have it killed, is depicted as a mother, nursing her infant whilst bearing the weight of the Cross that she carries daily.

Below the Blessed family unit, we see a woman clothed in red, on her knees with hands raised in repentance and tears streaming from her eyes. She has undergone an abortion. In her lap rests the dismembered remains of her murdered baby. The woman is tearfully calling to our Lord for Mercy, as she has realised the grave error of her deed. She seeks healing in the Sacrament of Confession and repentance.Of course, this equally applies to the irresponsible and unloving father of the child as well.

In contrast to the repentant mother who yearns for mercy, above and to the right of her, is a series of women, who purposely and intently present their infants for slaughter for various worldly reasons; uncontrolled sensuality, hard-heartedness, superficiality and indifference. The children they carry are a nuisance and a bother, affecting their selfish and hedonistic way of life. The children are offered to a queen. She is given the title, "the new Herod", who was responsible for the slaughter of thousands of infants at the time of the birth of Christ. This evil queen is Abortion. At her feet lay the dismembered bodies of countless innocents.

Above in Heaven, we see the Mother of God (Theotokos), the Ever-Virgin Mary, the Perfect Mother, who is seen nursing the Infant Christ. To Her left is our Father among the Saints, Saint Stylianos the protector and patron saint of children. The Mother of God, the Saints and all the Heavenly bodies grieve as they look down and see the holocaust below. The Angels weep at this indescribable calamity below.

Behind the evil queen can be seen her servant, the abortionist, murdering another child. Behind the abortionist is the master of the evil queen, the beast, the evil one, who gleefully watches as the mothers offer their children for slaughter, in the process losing their own souls to the beast.

From the Orthodox Service for the victims of abortion:

Priest:O most merciful, all gracious and compassionate Lord Jesus Christ our Savior, Son of God: we entreat Thee, most gracious Master: look with compassion upon Thy children who have been condemned to death by the unjust judgement of men. And as Thou hast promised to bestow the heavenly kingdom on them born of water and the Spirit, and who in blamelessness of life have been translated unto Thee; and Who said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - we humbly pray, according to Thy unfailing promise: grant the inheritance of Thy kingdom to the multitude of spotless infants who have been cruelly murdered in the abortuaries of this land; for Thou art the resurrection and the life and the repose of all Thy servants and of these innocents, O Christ our God.

Turn the hearts of those who seek to destroy Thy little ones. We beseech Thee to pour forth Thy healing grace upon them, that they may be convicted in their hearts and turn from their evil ways. Remember all of them that kill our children as on the altars of Moloch, and render not unto them according to their deeds, but according to Thy great mercy convert them: the unbelieving to true faith and piety, and the believing that they may turn from evil and do good.

O Holy Master, Almighty Father and pre-eternal God, Who alone made and directs all things; Who rises up quickly against the evil of the impious ones; who, by providence, teaches Thy people preservation of justice and the obliteration of evil on earth; Who condescends to raise up warriors for the protection of the people of God: we entreat Thee with compunction, that as Thou didst give David power to defeat Goliath, and as Thou didst condescend through Judas Maccabeus, to seize victory from the arrogant pagans who would not call on Thy Name; so too, grant protection to us, Thy servants against the enemies rising against us as we go forth to do spiritual battle against the evil one and those who do his will rather than Thine.

For Thou art a merciful God, and lovest mankind, and unto Thee do we send up glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.People:Amen.

[Stengapsept]

Dear Scott,

Some very moving and distressing things here.

But can I say that we perhaps need a little caution with the way we express our thoughts here? Something very powerful such as this:
In contrast to the repentant mother who yearns for mercy, above and to the right of her, is a series of women, who purposely and intently present their infants for slaughter for various worldly reasons; uncontrolled sensuality, hard-heartedness, superficiality and indifference. could easily lead someone to suppose that this amounted to a condemnation of the women. As a man I get uneasy making any assumptions about women who find themselves in this situation, and think we need to show Christian charity in our utterances. Are many women really indifferent to the fate of their unborn child?

How far, as Andreas implies, they are pushed this way by a society that describes abortion as a 'life-style choice', we cannot know. We do know that very many women have great trauma after having an abortion. We know that in our society there can be many pressures on women at this vulnerable time, and that not all of them have the reassurance of a husband or male partner willing to stand with them; we know how many and how various the pressures to which they are subject.

I may be wrong, but I prefer to assume the best, and to think that much can be done if care, support, and love are offered to women who come to this dark and lonely place.

So, my dear Scott, I am in entire agreement with your abhorrence of the sin, but would ask us all to consider our language and the impression we can give - especially in a discussion carried on mainly by men.

But none of this is to detract from your powerful message.

In Christ,

John

[freeprescriptionplanrrx]

In contrast to the repentant mother who yearns for mercy, above and to the right of her, is a series of women, who purposely and intently present their infants for slaughter for various worldly reasons; uncontrolled sensuality, hard-heartedness, superficiality and indifference. could easily lead someone to suppose that this amounted to a condemnation of the women. As a man I get uneasy making any assumptions about women who find themselves in this situation, and think we need to show Christian charity in our utterances. Are many women really indifferent to the fate of their unborn child? Thats possible I guess. But I think it was simply saying that those specific people illustrated in the Icon "presented their infants for slaughter for various worldly reasons..." and not that every person who ever had an abortion shared in those same motives or level of hard hardheartedness etc. Those motivations are common enough to warrant illustration in an icon regardless of the fact that they are not true in every single case. Just as it would be ok to illustrate similar things about other sins like stealing, rape, etc.. by picturing say a rapist who “with uncontrollable worldly lust and desire rapes a person” ,etc.

As a general rule (of which there are always going to be exception) those statements are generally true. for example it speaks of :

Worldly intentions - the intention to take the life of ones child would of necessity be worldly and not spiritual . If ones mind is totally free from worldly impulses and desires one would be incapable of sinning and therefore wouldn't have an abortion.

uncontrolled sensuality - If one is not willing to keep or give for adoption a child that results from a sex act then that specific sex act would be an act of sensuality ( unless the person was raped or a minor and couldn't consent which obviously does occur at times **) or if the sex is between unmarried partners it would also qualify as "sensuality".

hard-hardheartedness and indifference - Unless the abortion was done against the mothers will it would be hard not to impute hard hardheartedness because a "soft heart" wouldn't be willing to abort. As for indifference- apparently enough indifference existed to not spare the life of the child. Again this isn't true of every single case but it's certainly common enough to warrent illustrating in an icon.

superficiality- Very often abortions are committed because the person does not want to bear the burdens (in terms of money, time, lack of a social life, etc) of a child. That is the definition of superficiality in my view.

I'm not saying that (nor is the Icon writer I would assume) to condemn anyone. I readily admit I've committed numerous sins out of bad intentions, worldly lust , indifference , etc myself and I'm sure the Icon writer has as well.

* Less than 1 percent of abortions in the US are commited because of rape.

[Stengapsept]

As a general rule (of which there are always going to be exception) those statements are generally true. for example it speaks of :

Worldly intentions - the intention to take the life of ones child would of necessity be worldly and not spiritual . If ones mind is totally free from worldly impulses and desires one would be incapable of sinning and therefore wouldn't have an abortion.

uncontrolled sensuality - If one is not willing to keep or give for adoption a child that results from a sex act then that specific sex act would be an act of sensuality ( unless the person was raped or minor and couldn't consent which obviously does occur at times but **) or if the sex is between unmarried partners it would also qualify as "sensuality".

hard-hardheartedness and indifference - Unless the abortion was done against the mothers will it would be hard not to impute hard hardheartedness because a "soft heart" wouldn't be willing to abort. As for indifference- apparently enough indifference existed to not spare the life of the child. Again this isn't true of every single case but it's certainly common enough to warrent illustrating in an icon.

superficiality- Very often abortions are committed because the person does not want to bear the burdens (in terms of money, time, lack of a social life, etc) of a child. That is the definition of superficiality in my view.

Dear Scott,

Quite, and I appreciate what you say, as well as the passion with which you say it. I guess what I was getting at is the real difficulty of knowing what is in the heart of another, especially a pregnant woman with fears that lead her to think of abortion, and the need to bear in mind Simon's point about 'condemnation'.

It would be so easy to slip from where you are to a condemnation, without doing what you would do in terms of trying to understand the person concerned. So often in this world, having sinned, we can put on the armour that tries to protect us from our own conscience by feigning indifference, and those watching can easily reach the wrong conclusion.

I suppose I just do find this genuinely problematic, in that I can't bring myself to judge the motives of someone who has been driven to take such a step - whilst, of course, I have nothing but admiration for those who help such vulnerable women.


In Christ,

John

[electmobile]

As I suspect is so often the case in such issues, the real picture is more complex than we have recognised. It would be useful to know the statistics for abortions (in the UK, at any rate) by age group and socio-economic background. I would have less sympathy for a professional woman of, say, 24 who accepted the 'life-style' approach. That would seem more like justification of a conscious choice than pressure from one lobby group. The voices of opposition to abortion are not unheard. The case of a not-very-bright teenager from a disadvantaged background who, perhaps, sleeps with a boy because she craves love from someone, is, I submit, different.

Andreas.

[freeprescriptionplanrrx]

Dear Scott,

Quite, and I appreciate what you say, as well as the passion with which you say it. I guess what I was getting at is the real difficulty of knowing what is in the heart of another, especially a pregnant woman with fears that lead her to think of abortion, and the need to bear in mind Simon's point about 'condemnation'.

It would be so easy to slip from where you are to a condemnation, without doing what you would do in terms of trying to understand the person concerned. So often in this world, having sinned, we can put on the armour that tries to protect us from our own conscience by feigning indifference, and those watching can easily reach the wrong conclusion. I can see what your saying in that regard.

I suppose I just do find this genuinely problematic, in that I can't bring myself to judge the motives of someone who has been driven to take such a step - whilst, of course, I have nothing but admiration for those who help such vulnerable women. In some sense that is true of every action people take. Unless we have some way to peer into their head we can never be 100% sure exactly what they are thinking at the time .

[Theariwinna]

When I think about abortion, I always get angry at 1.The culture in general, which says it's okay, and 2.The abortion industry, which often pressures people and gives women false information. I wouldn't think there would be too many women who would have an abortion with a completely clear conscience before and afterward; I'd think most would have at least a little remorse or regret. It would be interesting to research how many women have repeated abortions, and how many learn their lesson (whether about the sanctity of human life, or simply about family planning) after the first time.

P.S. With the proliferation of birth control options, it's surprising that unwanted pregnancies occur as often as they do.

[Stengapsept]

When I think about abortion, I always get angry at 1.The culture in general, which says it's okay, and 2.The abortion industry, which often pressures people and gives women false information. I wouldn't think there would be too many women who would have an abortion with a completely clear conscience before and afterward; I'd think most would have at least a little remorse or regret. It would be interesting to research how many women have repeated abortions, and how many learn their lesson (whether about the sanctity of human life, or simply about family planning) after the first time.

P.S. With the proliferation of birth control options, it's surprising that unwanted pregnancies occur as often as they do.

Dear Rebecca,

Excellent points; like you, I find it hard to believe that there are many women who come to this place and leave it with an untroubled conscience.

We might want to remember the The Orthodox Office of Prayer and Supplication for the Victims of Abortion
O most merciful, all gracious and compassionate Lord Jesus Christ our Savior, Son of God: we entreat Thee, most gracious Master: look with compassion upon Thy children who have been condemned to death by the unjust judgement of men. And as Thou hast promised to bestow the heavenly kingdom on them born of water and the Spirit, and who in blamelessness of life have been translated unto Thee; and Who said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - we humbly pray, according to Thy unfailing promise: grant the inheritance of Thy kingdom to the multitude of spotless infants who have been cruelly murdered in the abortuaries of this land; for Thou art the resurrection and the life and the repose of all Thy servants and of these innocents, O Christ our God. It is a beautiful and moving prayer.

Is there also a prayer for the women involved?

In Christ,

John

[jeaccatty]

I am interested in this topic for a number of mostly pastoral reasons. I would like to see if perhaps you here can help with a question that I have. The adverse social/personal/emotional (and spiritual) effects of an abortion on the woman have been quite amply documented and discussed in a variety of sources. I am wondering now whether there is any similar investigation or even ancedotal evidence of a similar social/personal/emotional impact on the father of the aborted child. It is a good thing to be able to help the mother through her guilt and trauma - but how about helping the father as well. Anyone know of anything out there on this topic?

[Trikaduliana]

I found a few things:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/postab...ndabortion.htm

http://www.arlingtondiocese.org/offi...l/pr-male.html

(This has a reference to several books and articles on the subject)

http://www.afterabortion.info/PAR/V4...ionArticle.htm

(This also refers to some professional articles)

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/dec/03120908.html

(More links to articles here)

Hope some of this helps. Abortion is one of those topics I almost despair about because I don't seem to be able to do anything but feel bad. I hpe you can make a difference for even a few people in your ministry.

Peter