[darieBarexish]

Yes, Kosmas, many, many non-Americans would cringe at the above pronouncements, but let me assure you that there are also many Americans who would also shudder at Arnie throwing his verbal weight around like that. As for psychological assessment of politicians (of any country), it would seem that if we were to weed out arrogance, megalomania, greed and ego, there wouldn't be anyone left! Unfortunately, few "nice guys" get far in politics, and it has been so since ancient times.

[viiagrag]

Dear Rose,

I would think that being in the unia would obligate one to heed the words of the new bishop of Rome and Pope John Paul II relative to dialog with Orthodox Christians.

By the way, Kosmos I have heard much harsher words directed at the American culture and society from both Orthodox and Latin Christians and even Hierarchs. Some would even go so far as to draw severe comparisons between the American culture and communism.

The American Conference of Catholic Bishops has just met in Chicago where I live Rose, we also assume (hopefully) that the type of behavior that has taken up much of the time in those discussions are not characteristic of a "Catholic" mindset, albeit of a much more significant magnitude and more detrimental to Christianity than a few off the cuff remarks from Kosmos in the outback. Unfortunately the televised media has much interest in the subject matter. I would think that the whole incident has left many more people than just you with a desire not to look to the Latin beliefs any longer. Nevertheless, I'm sure most of us understand that conversations of this sort might be insulting to some and not to others depending on how one looks at things.

Personally as an American I wasn't insulted by Kosmos's comments, you should hear some of the comments coming from the head or voice of the Catholic league about America on occasion, I often agree with him. I forget his name now, an Irishman and official Roman Catholic representative. If you disagree with Kosmo's remarks there is little doubt that you would disagree with the voice of the Catholic league. Would you then embrace a desire not to look to the Catholic beliefs any longer, or would that "reasoning" create some sort of a problem? Well comments can be good or bad and so can responses and actions, create your battles if you like I suppose. I don't think Kosmos had that in mind as he clearly stated at the very beginning of his initial post. You could just forget the whole thread and forgive us Orthodox Christians if we do not meet your perceived standards of decent and acceptable behavior.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[T5qYkHWQ]

Olga wrote:

Unfortunately, few "nice guys" get far in politics, and it has been so since ancient times. For the sake of reason I would assume that certain men and women with genuine ideals must surely, even today, be working in politics; but on the whole the impression I have is that those who struggle hardest for power in any profession, and politics is the power-profession par excellence, don't tend to be too tender-hearted. I don't really understand why the good Lord lets things be that way, but He himself pointed out the difference between the sense of this world and that of His Kingdom.

Nothing against actors or acting, I even enjoyed one or two movies in which Arnie starred; but the fact that actors seem to do well in politics (Arnie, Clint, Reagan) perhaps suggests that the skills of one profession are transferrable to the other!

We do pray for our leaders in Orthodox liturgy. Theologians may be able to tell us why in more detail, but perhaps part of the reason we pray is out of concern for the kind of choices and decisions they are going to make, which affect millions - literally.

Still, I guess it's also easy for non-Americans to take pot-shots at America. Why doesn't the world stop adopting the Coca-Cola lifestyle of western consumerism which supports America and capitalism instead?

[LSDDSL]

Leandros says:

"we need leaders, we need people with the gift of leadership embedded inside them, but they have to purify their hearts first and then to assume leadership in order to lead us out of our blindness (both secular and spiritual)."

A wise word. Thank you. Could you (or others) suggest an appropriate prayer or prayers for attaining purity of heart, that one might not be a whitewashed tomb or worse, a blind guide leading even others to destruction?

Thanks,

zat

[timmybrown]

Thank you Leandros,

I agree with you about the points you raised about purity of heart. I also agree that we should pray for our leaders. They are not perfect, and we should not expect them to be.

I also agree with what you said that if our Saints were ever judged by a secular psychologist they would probably be deemed 'unfit' or 'abnormal' as leaders.

This is obviously a sign of sick and imperfect society. Since 'secularity' is caused by the worldly societies we live in.

'Societas perfectas' as you know is equal to a Utopia (ie. Gk: OU =No TOPIA=Place). And talking about politics and perfect societies usually gets us no place.

Jesus once said: "You are of this world; I am not of this world." And elsewhere, while being questioned by Pilate: "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest."

I guess we have to rise above worldly thoughts and try to become more spiritual thus becoming part of God's Kingdom and not be attached to the worldly ones.

I hope you would agree that purity of heart is one thing, and cultivating our 'talents' is another.

I hope Arnie forgives me. Sorry Arnie.

Thank you once again Leandros.

God Bless

Kosmas

[jamemeveRhype]

Dear Rose

My original message stated:

Sorry this may not be based on Orthodoxy but I felt I had to post this. Please forgive me, I hope I don't offend anyone's pride by posting this. (By the way as a Christian you should not have pride anyway.)
This just made me laugh and cry at the same time. I'm not sure if you read this or not. One can't seriously base one's values and beliefs on national pride. You can't serve both masters.

My heart tells me you are offended and so I am compelled for some reason to apologise and say I am genuinely sorry.

However my mind tells me that there is something wrong with having too much national pride. I hope you and others realise that it's not a) healthy and b) a Christian virtue, to have a zealous pride and attachment to your identity and your own country.

Jesus talks of Mammon the master of this world:"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. .." (Matthew 6:24).

If you stick a spade into America it won't say " hey, you hurt me" or if I would shout abuses to a the Grand Canyon or a mountain it won't get angry or become ofended. So why do you hurt for a land which you will not even be able to take with you to the afterlife and which dosn't and cannnot hurt for you in return?

DO you honestly think God will separate us in Heaven? "Ok you belong to Australia, you belong to China, you were Japanese, you were Russian and you Italian, ah and you were Austrian you all go in that corner. Next!? Ah America!!! oh you don't have to worry, you pass judgement altogether, you go straight up those stairs follow the yellow line. Next!!! Oh too bad you were from Turkey you don't go to heaven, stand behind the Arabs, the Iraqis, the Indonesians and the French?!?!"

This is obviously not going to happen. Which leaves the question, what is the Orthodox/ Christian position on extreme Nationalism? In anycase what benefits (spiritual or mataerial) do we receive from being nationalistic and having zealous pride in our own country?

One may recall the days of Babel when the 'Babelonians' tried to build the tallest tower and to reach the heavens. This was probably the begining of national pride "Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth.'" We see here that mankind making a name for themeselves was not approved by god, we shouuld all consider ourselve equal under God. that's why the Holy Spirit mixed their tongues and they ceased this arrogant task.

Elsewhere The Holy Scriptures tell us constantly that God despises the proud and arrogant:

ie "The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled)...and the idols will totally disappear....stop trusting in mankind, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?#" (Isaiah 2:11,12,18,22).

As for Nations and rulers:

"Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing. To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to? As for an idol, a craftsman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and fashions silver chains for it. A man too poor to present such an offering selects wood that will not rot. He looks for a skilled craftsman to set up an idol that will not topple. Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing. No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff." (Isaiah 40:17-24)

[jamemeveRhype]

THere was a recent documentary on TV about psychotic or rather psychopathic bosses and people in leadership. it turns out that most people who climb the corporate ladder are psychopaths. Some workers underwent a simple test which shows if they have a boss who is psychopathic or not. All bosses showed signs of being psychopathic, but further tests were required.

That's why i think there should be a test before Politicians go into political office. I know that many institutions, hospitals, schools, even St Vladimir's Seminary requires a psychological assessment for all entrants, so why not the political arena. If there was one done during Hitler's time, we probably would not be talking about him today.

Here is the link to the Report from the ABC Network.

http://www.management-issues.com/dis...n=blog&id=2115

[T5qYkHWQ]

In my first psychology undergraduate course I already noticed the similarities between the behaviour social scientists describe as psychopathic or sociopathic and the qualities of character our society seems to demand from and encourage in its leaders and in the people we deem "successful". Underneath the polished and charming, superficially "caring" and "democratic" exterior is often a heart of stone. That's unfortunately been my experience personally and professionally. That's why the Christian idea of leadership as service is so important. Brother Leandros is right about leaders having to purify their hearts, but I don't think most worldly leaders waste any time worrying about that. A big part of the problem is that nice people are often reluctant to act upon the world and others, whereas much less savoury personalities are often all too keen to do so. A friend of mine used to say: pessimists are the people who foresee the end of the world, and optimists are those who bring it about!

[timmybrown]

Sorry this may not be based on Orthodoxy but I felt I had to post this. Please forgive me, I hope I don't offend anyone's pride by posting this. (By the way as a Christian you should not have pride anyway.)

This just made me laugh and cry at the same time.

Arnold Schwartzenegger talks on CNN:

"If you believe this country(USA), not the United Nations, is the best hope for democracy, then you are a Republican...We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead. And we are the America that fights not for imperialism, but for human rights and democracy." FROM DICTIONARY.COM
Definition of DEMOCRACY

Democracy: n 1: the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives 2: a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them [syn: republic, commonwealth] [ant: autocracy] 3: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group [syn: majority rule]. Hang on!!! Am I missing something here??? Isn't the opposite of Democracy Austocracy, the rule by one the few or singular member? Isn't the UN representing all of us? The majority?

And Arnie continues:

"The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest economic growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you remember the pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are overtaking the U.S.? Ridiculous. Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe it. We may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans do." And then he adds:

"We are still the lamp lighting the world, especially those who struggle...We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our village children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors to raise up the poor and the sick. We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in Africa and the developing world." What Hypocricy, What Lies!!! First he admits that his country will never allow anyone to rise or take off economically and then he tells us that America feeds the hungry and destitute.

What the hec is going on over there in America? Please tell me you don't all think like that over there.

"Today, the world no longer fears the Soviet Union, and it is because of the United States of America." That's because everyone now fears America instead.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti-American or anti repaublican party, it's just that arrogant up yourself, I can do anything I want and get away with it by paying off everyone with my American Express card, cause I'm a Cowboy, attitude that rubs me the wrong way I guess.

Conclusion: polititians (especially president's) realy need psychological assessments before they run for office.

Original - http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...er.transcript/

[Pcodaygs]

Yes Kosmas, I find your posting quite insulting. Your remarks are very offensive.

I noticed you are in Australia, spewing your degrading remarks at USA and its leaders. Not being Orthodox, I'm assuming (hopefully) that these types of remarks are not characteristic of an Orthodox mindset.

[timmybrown]

PS (Isaiah 40:22 NIV is a gross mistranslation - Surprisingly enough it should read: "He who governs/controls the rotation of the Earth has made the inhabitants of her as locusts/grass tips".

ie Guron=Rotation

I used the / slash to show that either one or the other is correct. Many believe that AKRIDES should realy be trans. as the "tips of the grass" since St John the Baptist used to eat AKRIDES. If he ate grasshoppers this would be against Jewish laws (eg Lev 11:31)

[T5qYkHWQ]

Dear All,

Perhaps it's in the nature of the material we are discussing (i.e. politics) that heated arguments emerge.

Kosmas, excessive national pride and investment in ethnic / racial / national identity is known in Orthodoxy as the sin of phyletism.

Rose, why is the reputation of Mr Schwarzenegger so important to you? Can't one be critical of some aspects of American culture, yet perhaps appreciative of other aspects? Anyway, I find it very disheartening when I see one fellow Christian attacking another, even after an attempt at reconciliation has been made. As for your reflections on the whole "Orthodox mindset" and "Orthodox beliefs", perhaps I should now reject all Byzantine Catholics and what they stand for because I didn't like the way you've been speaking to Kosmas? I'm not saying this to alienate you, please forgive me if I sound overly critical as I really believe we Christians make too much of our denominational differences at the expense of Christ's teaching at times. However poorly I'm making my point here, I would like to hope it's received as a contribution towards greater love and understanding between us.

In Christ
Byron

[timmybrown]

Dear Sister Rose,

As you know, the Orthodox mindset refers to the mindset of Christ alone, and is based on Scriptural (OT&NT) instruction. The Saints of our Church also provide teachings and examples for us to live by, since it is in them that we see the fruit of Christ's bessings and the reflection of God's light.

In 2 Timothy 4:2 St Paul instructs Timothy and exhorts the faithful Church:
"Preach the word; be insistant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

Jesus would many a time, rebuke, correct and exhort his own people. St Paul likewise did this to the Greeks and Gentiles.

Unfortunately society has many pressures which many of us are unaware of and which may intimidate us and fill us with fears and complexes and passions. Sometimes it's better to talk about these, however other times (as our spiritual fathers teach us) we ought to keep silent.

I wish and pray that the world would realise that we are all one family under God. There is no higher or lower, we are all imperfect human beings. I admit a true Orthodox Christian who has aquired a higher level of humility and spirituality would be completely humble and not respond to anyone's criticism nor would he or she be offended by being corrected. As you know.

May Christ and Mary of the pure Unfading Mystical Rose (Rodod to Amaranton) guide us and teach us to live as citizens of the Heavenly Kingdom of God.

IN HUMILITY,

KOSMAS