[Peapeuddedbaw]

I have to say I agree with Effie on this one. I think what has concerned many countries (including my own) is the illegality of the strikes on Iraq. The link between Iraq and al Qaeda is dubious to say the least. It should be said that Australia lost more people in the Bali bombings (proportionally) than America did in 911, yet has not declared war on Indonesia (Australia did join the Coalition of the Willing though).
It will be interesting to see how America handles the situation in Iraq from now on, Hopefully it will be the start of something better for the Iraqis, but does Baghdad need McDonalds or all the other things which are bound to come in now? I heard that America is broadcasting 5 hours of American TV on Iraqi TV already.
I think everyone is and should be pleased at the end of Hussein's regime, and there are now many wonderful opportunities for Iraq, but was the method of removal the right one? I don't think so, there must have been alternatives to war.

[bypeTeenehalT]

Marina

I've sent you an email regarding this. I suggest you let the matter drop.

John.

[MadMark]

Dear Effie,

I just returned from a weekend away, and you are right! I take full reponsibility for starting this storm, but I so much appreciate your kind undestanding. And I feel badly aout relating to you my personal difficulties while in Greece, but I felt a little insulted, or better, hurt, also - Yet Effie, I received your kind response with joy, for I could see that we understood that we had both over-reacted. I certainly forgive you, and am so very grateful for yours.
I had not intended to start a discussion on the war at all, but wanted to defend my country from people wh are always attacking her. Personally, from the very beginning I did not support even the idea of a war with Iraq. As a patriotic American citizen, I have supported our troops in so far as I have prayed that they will come home safely -and soon! I have not supported the policies and decisions of my government during this war, just as did not during the war with Serbia. As any citizen, we Americans by right do not have to agree with our country in its policies, but we do uphold our army when it is fighting a war. So much is said about diplomacy, but does it always work? Would nations such as France, Germany and Russian have succeeded in a dimlomatic solution with a man like Hussein? I rather recall that in the 1930's, a certain British Prime Minister, who, after meeting with Hitler, came back home, giving assurances that there would be "peace in our time", only to see Hitler march on his neighbors. The Vatican also felt that it had made an agreement with Hitler to keep the Catholic Church in Germany free, only have him totally disregard it. If only leaders of such countries as Irag and North Korea could be counted on to keep treaties, be humane to their citizens, not illegally imprisoning them and so on, then the rest of the world would not be threatened. I will not defend this war, but just as Effie took offense when she felt she and her countrymen had been treated poorly, so do I when I feel that the great good that my country has done for so many is constantly overlooked, and so many people delight in demeaning us. If you read my initial response to Effie, you can see that I have no delusions about some of the ill that my country has done, but you will also see that I believe firmly that she has done much good. If there were to be some horrendous major war that would sweep the world, and the U.S. refused to participate, give aid, arms, or funds, how would it go for those nations normally Amrica's allies? Could France, so bold in dimplomacy, stave off with its army and technology a major invasion by a large and well-armed bellicose army? or Belgium, or Norway, or any of the African nations? What would Russia, with a demoralized, underpaid and ill-equipped army do to push back an invasion by the Chinese? What if Turkey decided to take all of Cypress, how would the Greek army, air force and navy with no one to help do in a war against the invaders? Just say for a moment that nations found themselves at war with few or no allies -how would they do? I know for certain, that America would indeed come to the aid of its traditional allies, and I would firmly support it, as would all the American people. Please, don't be so harsh on us!




Dear Marina,
I apologize for not spelling your name correctly, I type very poorly, and often make mistakes. Marina is a very popular name among the Russians, so I am very familiar with it.

I would only like to observe, and not argue, that as a British citizen, you might be treated differently in some nations than if you were an American. I have travelled with some Canadian friends of mine, and in some places, they told me "just tell them you are Canadian, it will be easier for you." I cannot and will not do that - of course, if I were a Canadian I would, but I am proud to be a citizen of my country. You missed my point: I felt that I was not being treated well by lots of people because they saw me as an American not as a person, a priest or a monk. (I was in Egypt just as Osama Bin-Laden had ordered Muslims the world over to kill Americans wherever they found them. My time spent in Egypt was extremely pleasant, and I found the Egyptians to be calm and very gracious. When I walked from my van to get closer to the Great Pyramid, my Muslim"security" officer, hired by the government for my protection, sat in the van, smoked, and visited with my Coptic Christian driver alas, I must admit, I would not want to go there now!) And Marian, I certainly was not mistreated by everybody, for if you read my post, I said I received many blessings while in Greece, and this was from many lovely Greek citizens. When I spoke to Effie of my feeling badly about my treatment by many, many Greeks, it was not an apology at all, but an explanation.

Effie and I seem to be at peace with each other, and that is what matters to me, and that makes me very happy- we have had some very wonderful discussion on other topics, and I am sure that we will in the future. This was one incident, and hopefully we both learned from it Effie has a good Christian heart combined with high intelligence and great common sense. Who could ask for more?

I was being rather defensive to Effie, with whom I was having a conversation, and I felt badly because I had made a statement which while wrong in its assertion, was not meant to be an insult. Only when I read it back, did I see that it really sounded like I felt that the Hellenes could not live democratically, and I bungled the inital thought very badly, and again, I admit and apologize for my blunder. I truly had not intended to sound arrogant or condescending, but part of the reaction to me and my statement was brought about by the fact that I am indeed an American, and of course being so, I would of course, look at any other nation in such a manner. Someone recently posted somewhere on this site that since this community is a rather on-going discussioin of a variety of topics, many times we will post a ressponse without taking time to think. I don't know how long you have been a community member, but I seen many occasions when members apologized to each other for saying something out of line. We are human beings, and we make mistakes. In all my posts to this community, I have always tried to take a pastoral view towards all questions -in this situation, I had no business anything saying at all about another nation's form of government.

Perhaps you and Effie can inform me what form of government The Greek nation has had for the last 100 years, and how long has a full democratic form of government existed in Greece. I somehow had the impression that the Hellenes had been ruled by members of Queen vitcoria's extended family for some time. Please educate me here. Actually, never, mind, I will do some reading on the subject - to me, this community is for matters spiritual

God bless you, Marina, and forgive me a sinner.

Hieromonk Averky

[plaiskegizils]

Marina,
Please, let us not continue this discussion in a public forum. Your response to my post to you perfectly exemplifies what I have been trying to say - I feel that you are not focusing on what I am trying to say, but are reacting, somewhat unpleasantly, I might add, to what you perceive me to be saying.

Some people have great ease in communicating with each other -some do not- some people are drawn to another person immediatley, while with others, it can be seen that it won't work. I only fear that ours could be a relationship that would be only contentious, and my aim on this site is to share my spiritual experiences with others, and to be comforted and to learn from the members of this community, not to have unpleasantries.

I cannot tell you how much I regret that I am responsible for this entire discussion - it has caused me much distress.and anguish.

Breaking my promise to myself, I have responded, but read again my words to you which end, not with "the subject," but "any" subject.

Forgive me, I am a weak and sinful man, and all of this has made me physically ill,

Hieromonk Averky

[enfoires]

Is there life after death?
Feb 27th 2003
From The Economist print edition

Review of the book:
Venice: Fragile City 1797-1997
By Margaret Plant


"Ms Plant is professor emeritus in art history at Monash University in Melbourne... She begins by describing the plucky survival of Venice after the fall of the Serene Republic to Napoleon's army in 1797. Napoleon, the liberator, ... behaved like a pig. He stole the four bronze horses from the basilica of San Marco, ... "

And so forth, but apparently Ms Plant fails to note that the Doge originally stole the four famous horses (which are back in Venice now -- or atleast their replicas are) from Constantinople, during his terrible rape of the heart of Christendom; it was called the Fourth Crusade.

[Styparty]

George, on the surface it somehow seems macabre to keep on remembering past wars but it's absolutely necessary in my opinion, because people seem to have such short memories and just keep on doing the same things.

New Zealanders are remembered with affection here in Greece, especially in Crete. In fact veterans of the 2nd World War come to Crete each year for a special ceremony in remembrance of the brave Anzacs who died in the war. I have two very interesting books about the war in Crete.

The Fall of Crete by Alan Clark and
Ill Met by Moonlight by W. Stanley Moss.

Both are worth reading.

This is an excerpt from The Fall of Crete concerning Gunner D.C. Perkins (4 Fd Regt) one of many brave New Zealanders who worked behind enemy lines after Crete was occupied by the Germans. Perkins is buried in Crete and this is written concerning his grave : “Grave of the most fearless of fighters ever to leave New Zealand, known to all Cretans as the famous Kapitan Vassilios. Killed over 100 Germans single handed during the occupation. Led a guerrilla band, and fell from machine-gun fire in February 1944, near Lakkoi – the last gallant Kiwi killed in Crete. This man is honoured by all Cretans”.

To be honoured by Cretans is a great honour indeed – these were the people who stopped the German War Machine and who had Hitler boiling mad and asking why when Paris fell in a few days his army couldn’t subdue this little island. (this last is written in an official memo that is in the Nuremberg Trial records).

Past wars should not be forgotten of course, but we should also look to the future with hope. And we should raise our voices in protest when we see injustice being done, no matter which country is doing it. It might be your country or it might be mine, that doesn't matter. What matters is that we Orthodox should not remain silent - especially if it is just to "get along" with other people. We have an obligation as Orthodox to speak out.

Effie

[galaktiusman]

I found this article on the web and I think it is thought provoking. Here it is:


AMERICANS: JUDGES OF THE EARTH?

[Translated from the original Arabic, published in An-Nahar, Lebanese newspaper, on the 22nd of September]


We were among those who sincerely mourned the thousands of victims that felled on the 11th of September, an absurd death, similar to the daily death of Iraqi children. This death comes as a result of abhorrence to the "Absolute Giant", and paid its consequence those innocents living in the Giant's land. This absurd death saddened me, and soon turned to become an alarming fear for the fate of threatened family members and friends living there. I prayed that a death like this might die forever. Mayhap America can now dream of a new life for its own and for others too.

By the time this article and is published, this nation might choose to go the way of vengeance. If it were proven, that vengeance could stop violence, then, this should have been obvious since Cain killed his brother in the beginning of history. Collective death could result, since it shall be almost impossible for the US to arrest the perpetrator, in that that thousands of innocents could soon be exterminated, to say what?

And if the regime, where the perpetrator is hiding, is found to be responsible for hosting him, can the US annihilate the people of that hosting country; does America want to do that? Is it possible for a great nation, a nation absolute in its greatness, to avenge, in its bitterness, by wiping innocent peoples? Is this a justice or a reaction? Isn't this same reaction that is generating the forces of revolt in the weakened nations -- who will try some day to break their way out of their miserable situation through what is called terrorism -- trying to avenge their wounded dignity? Is a dialogue still possible between the strong and the miserable of the earth? Who did arm, in the first place, those miserable that the US is going to annihilate? Does the destruction of the poor produce peace?

It seems now that the "Clash of civilizations", as depicted by Samuel Huntington, is underway. The problem of such terminology is that, that terrorism is not restricted to one civilization: it was German, Japanese, and for a period of time American (within America itself), Muslims then, do not monopolize terrorism. But why the US is not asking itself for the reasons that pushed those miserable to what it identifies as terrorism? Aren't prejudice, depravedness, and political oppression behind these actions, even though wars have become impossible between the earth's nations? Since the little aspire to be liberated from dominion, and since their means of liberty are in the hands of the big, why then doesn't these strong hands stretch out for sincere cooperation and help, free from all forms of humiliation, until the groan of the miserable is appeased?

America may lead an overwhelming campaign for a while, but how can it eradicate the spots of terrorism all over the planet? Will it strike all nations it categorized as exporters of terrorism? Will it not consider that these same nations will come out again from the rubbles, their grieve multiplied and their hatred concentrated, re-entering in a vicious and diabolical unbreakable cycle of violence?

And if "terrorism", "Arabs", and "Muslims" have become synonyms in western mind, aren't we re-entering a renewed and endless Crusade, based upon two fairytales? First, that the West is Christian, and second, that Islam, in its essence, is exporter of war and terror. Will not this lead to the belief, among Muslim groups, that Christians (wherever they might reside) are allies of the west and therefore friends of the state of Israel? Political and cultural Islam must stand on its feet through understanding, creativity and prosperity in all their aspects, in order to eliminate the danger of Crusades; because its continuing path, of poverty and feebleness, is triggering its counter-Crusade path or Jihad in Muslim terminology, and of which, Islam is not capable. And if Islam was humiliated beyond reason, it will be pressed to suicidal stands, which, in its own terminology, is called martyrdom. In front of such a predictable madness, the West may prove to be fragile and impatient, contrary to Islam, and this Crusade will soon abolish itself in the same manner the Crusades of the Middle Ages were overthrown from our countries. The Western European alliance with the US, in addition to Russia, is enough to permanently convince all Muslims (not only conservatives) that Christianity, in its essence, is enemy of Islam and opposed to the freedom of Moslem nations, then we shall witness a renewed colonialism, even after that the forms of the old one have vanished.

Before World War Two, we believed, in one way or another, in the missionary role of the US calling for freedom and democracy. This picture has been shaken a lot, and possibly terminally, in Palestine, Africa and former Yugoslavia - we now witness the nation of Lincoln employing Realpolitik - not shying from disclosing that it looks after its foreign interests and, consequently, enters this or that conflict accordingly. The scale of justice is no longer supported and even this doesn't need to be proved in historical Palestine. Will the US feel that it is called to change its stand, after the last tragedy, to become anew a judge not a party in the conflict? Will not this make of it stronger and more respectable and a hope for the nations of the earth?

This "burst of vengeance" may be excused if it is limited in space, this may limit some terrorists for a while. But anger shouldn't last, because, in a later stage, it consumes itself. For America's sake, I think it better looks to conclude a new era of world peace. The truly great nation can conclude such peace, through justice and help.

Perhaps, the American behavior in the world is inspired by the second verse of the 26th chapter of Isaiah, as inscribed on the entrance of Harvard University: "Open the gates, that the righteous nation... may enter in", but the full verse continues: "which keeps the truth". America is convinced that it holds the "truth", or what it claims to be its truth, enabling it to enter the gates of knowledge to rule the world. I even remember that President Clinton stating something in this context: power facilitates such a rule, with or without truth. It is obvious that the founding fathers [of America] believed that the New World, which they immigrated to, is their second Promised Land, a land of blessings; and most Americans today still believe that financial riches are divine blessings.

It is not evident that American rulers have read the gospel, which strictly cautions against mammon and foremost against dominion. Most assuredly, typical Americans did not read ascetic literature, which cautions us from monopolizing wealth. Which leads us to the American world philosophy: "if a powerful authority can be successfully overlaid in an American context, why can't this authority, be overlaid in a worldwide context? All sorts of protest and revolution can be subdued through pro-US regimes, who benefit originally from oppressing their own peoples and who continue exiting through American supportive politics."

But one must read history and learn how kingdoms have felled: "Say: O Allah, Master of the Kingdom! Thou givest the kingdom to whomsoever Thou pleasest and takest away the kingdom from whomsoever Thou pleasest, and Thou exaltest whom Thou pleasest and abasest whom Thou pleasest in Thine hand is the good; surety, Thou hast power over all things" (The Family of Imran verse 26). It seems Americans didn't read the Koran verse. But they must have read the psalms: "Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth" (Ps 2:10). The problem is that Americans have set themselves "judges of the earth", establishing their own custom justice, not the_Justice, whenever they wanted and referring solely to themselves. The missionary days of President Roosevelt are gone when Americans believed they needed to establish a United Nations organization, responsible for achieving world justice, until, they discovered they can do without it whenever it was necessary; Moreover, they also decided that Israel can dismiss all UN resolutions, because Israel too, has set itself, or was appointed by the Americans, "judge of the Middle East".

I beseech God, for the US to continue prospering in wealth, science and technology which it promotes, and for God to lead it to the true path of meekness, in which it may discover that no one has appointed it "judge of the earth". Mayhap this terrible catastrophe, which hurt us as well, inspires it the wisdom of modesty, and mayhap it commences counting itself along the same line of other nations, without haughtiness, and may it start restraining from punishing others, lest punishment may fell upon it.

May America keep its wealth and may God increase its riches, but may it never become prideful. May it prosper and may we prosper too, which requires from it a great deal of self-restraint while employing its power. No one is expecting the US to become a charitable organization, but we expect from it not to underestimate our right to existence and that, we too, have the right to live. We don't want to humiliate the US, because this is called hatred, but what benefit the US shall gain if it "shall gain the whole world, and lose its own soul?"

If on the contrary, America begins employing all its might in the service of the miserable of the earth, terrorism shall vanish and, God grant, love shall reign.

+ Metropolitan George Khodr
of the Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of Mount Lebanon

[plaiskegizils]

Dear John,

Thank you for your good words. As the young boy Adonis says, Greece has two definite sides, very pious people, but there are many with no shame at all.I used to sometimes attend Divine Liturgy at the catrhedral in Athens, and there were so very many lovely young families, with the sweetest little children, and the children -were very quiet!

I truly love Aegina, the area around the port where the boats come in and which is very "touristy," demands that any man, monk, or not who is interested in his soul, keep his eyes, as you say on "faces." I found young Germans, both men and woman, to be totally unaware of their behavior and dress, or rather lack thereof. Yet, the monastery in which the holy relics of St. Nektarios of Pentapolis are kept, is so very lovely and grace-filled. God looks down at Greece and see all of its sinfulness, yet He sheds much grace on the faithful. I saw much holiness there, and sense its Orthodox fragrance at times.

John, I have always felt that the Greeks, who proudly point to themselves as being the founders of democracy, cannot as a people, seem to function well in a democratic system. This true of all too many peoples of the world, and that is why it is such folly for the U.S. to attempt to foster democracy amongst people totally unsuited for it. Democracy for many is not the most suitable, or most desirable form of government. Besides this, the "democracy" that the U.S. desires for other countries is one that is suitable for its own political and military interests. I say this as a loyal and patriotic American! For example, at one time or another, almost all of the Latin American countries have suffered for years under military dictatorships, many supported by the United states; monarchy for them would work out so much better, for the king is a national rallying point of pride for a nation. While I agree that solid democratic institutions are called for, and that men need to be free and have civil and legal rights, a monarchy for many nations would be more in keeping with national character. People who would do away with monarchies would do well to look at the European Union, which has several monarchs as heads of state. The Islamic world is another question. I read an article a few years ago in an economic journal which speaks of the king of Spain often going to South America himself, making trade and economic deals which are very good for the interests of all concerned. When he has travelled around some of the Latin American nations, he has been referred to by local media very positively, almost proudly, as "His Majesty, the King." We Americans have been unfairly taught that any monarch is an evil despot, and he must be thrown out. The former King Constantine of Greece is no prize, but socialism is detrimental to the Greek soul. I have a friend who was raised as a strict Calvinist, then converted to Othodoxy. About a month ago he stated that the reason that there is so much dissension in the Orthodox World is because there is no Anointed Emperor to keep order. I tend to agree. Don't ask me why I have raved on so, I have absolutely no idea...

In Christ,

Hieromonk Averky

[MadMark]

Dear Marina, Effie, and members of this community,

I wish humbly to ask forgiveness from each and every one of you for my having opened the door to such a passionate dsicussion, especially during Great Lent.

We could talk on and on about the legality and morality of war, but in the end, we most likely would still hold to our original positions.

When I looked at some other message boards, I was very upset to see people in America bitterly fighting over "jurisdictions," OCA, Synod, GOA, and so on. Forgetting basic Chrsitian love, people hurl insults at each other, deepening the gap between people and Orthodox unity.

This community has been a blessing for me, for in my illness, I sometimes am not able to leave my small home for days at a time. I have found the people of this community to be pious, intelligent educated, sensitive, and interesting.

Great Lent will be over on Sunday, and the beautiful and moving services of Holy Week will commence, culminating in the joyous Pascha of the Lord. Let us put away this discussion, preparing our hearts for the Feast of Feasts

As long as man does not repent for his sins, refusing to love God with his whole heart and soul, and his neighbor as himself, wars and human suffering and loss of life will continue. War is an aspect of our fallen nature, and sad to say, whether we are against war or not, there will always be those who will find reason to march against other nations.

I have learned an important lesson from what has happended, for I saw most clearly how sinful, passionate and lacking in love I truly am. I am grateful to all of you for your patience and forbearance with me.

May the Lord richly bless and keep all of You

sinful

Averky

[Styparty]

One more article on the legality of the war in Iraq.

This is from Human Rights/Constitutional Rights at Columbia Law School.


The War on Iraq: Legal Issues
After months of trying to rally international support for a war and a two-day ultimatum demanding that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein step down, the United States attacked Iraq on March 19, 2003. The goal, U.S. President George W. Bush said in a speech, was "to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger."

Experts disagree as to whether the war was legal under international law. Under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, to which the United States is a party, a nation's use of force is authorized under only two circumstances: in individual or collective self-defense, as outlined in Article 51, or pursuant to a Security Council resolution, as outlined in Article 42.

Self Defense

Since it was not directly attacked by Iraq the United States did not have an obvious right to self-defense. The administration, though, argued that it had a right to defend itself preemptively against a future possible attack. In his speech to the United Nations on September 12, 2002, President Bush described Saddam Hussein's regime as "a grave and gathering danger," detailed that regime's persistent efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction, and spoke of an "outlaw regime" providing such weapons to terrorists. For an extensive discussion of international law and the preemptive use of force, see the Congressional Research Service's Report for Congress of September 23, 2002.

While arguing for preemption, the administration also suggested that the United States had a right to self-defense on the grounds that the Iraqi regime was connected to Al Qaeda, the organization responsible for the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001. In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell told the United Nations Security Council that Iraq was harboring a terrorist cell led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a suspected associate of Al Qaeda. Powell also said that senior Iraqi and Al Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Ansar al-Islam, an Islamist militia group, was also suspected of ties to Al Qaeda, and was based in a lawless part of northeast Iraq, though it was not known to have cooperated with Saddam Hussein.

For more information on Iraq and the use of terrorism, see Iraqi Ties to Terrorism from the Council on Foreign Relations.

The Security Council

The 15-member United Nations Security Council did not authorize the March 19, 2003 attack on Iraq. It unanimously passed Resolution 1441 on November 8, 2002, calling for new inspections intended to find and eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. (The Arms Control Association provides a chronology of previous weapons inspections in Iraq.) Iraq accepted the renewed inspections, which were to be carried out by UNMOVIC and the IAEA. Under the terms of the resolution, if Iraq obstructed their work, the chief inspectors were to report promptly back to the Security Council, which would "convene immediately" to consider the situation and "the need for full compliance." The resolution also threatened "serious consequences" if Iraq failed to comply.

The United States, backed by Britain and Spain, began to seek a second U.N. resolution to declare Iraq in material breach of its obligation to disarm. Veto-wielding permanent members France, Russia and China, as well as a number of other members, preferred to give inspectors more time on the premise that inspections were working. Up against a deeply divided Council, the U.S. pulled its proposal on March 17.

The U.S. administration argued that it had enough legal support for its subsequent military action, based on resolution 1441 as well as two previous Security Council resolutions: 678, which in 1990 authorized the U.N. to take military action against Iraq, and 687, which set the terms of the cease-fire at the end of the 1991 Gulf War. Administration lawyers said that because Iraq never lived up to the terms of the cease-fire, the use force was now valid.

Other Legal Issues

Nations at war are required to follow the law of war, also known as international humanitarian law. Based on the Geneva Conventions of 1949 as well as customary international law, the law of war regulates military operations in an attempt to protect civilians from the devastation of war. The Center for Defense Information and Human Rights Watch both offer useful discussions of humanitarian law."

Effie

[plaiskegizils]

Dear Adonis,

How wonderful to hear that you are going to Greece. Even in the large cities,when church bell ring, people cross themselves, there are priests, monks, nuns visibly walking in the streets, Most shops carry icons of all sizes and price range, and of course, churches simply everywhere. It is so wonderful to be in a country in which the majority of people are Orthodox. Once, I lived there for just short of a month, and met so may educated, yet spiritual monks, witnessed so may pious Greek people, and vistiee many churches and monasteries. I was firs there in l987, when the Holy icon. "Axion Estin" was brought from Mt. Athos to Athens, and it was so touching to see the outpouring of love for the wonder-working Icon, much to the dismay of the socialist government! Almost two thirds of the Greek population came to venerate the icon! I had seen it in the Protaton, but when it was in Athens, it was a moving experience, for buses arrived from all parts of Greece 24 hours a day. There are so many lovely monasteries. My favorite is on the island of Zakinthos, where there is beautiful convent that makes the slippers for St.Dionysios of Zakinthos, the Wonderworker, who leaves his reliquary and wals around, and works miracles for people to this day. Zakinthos has a distinctive Italianate feel to it, for it once belonged to Venice. The convent has a beautiful chapel, and wonderful flowers. the nuns are meek and kind. Zakinthos is a beautiful place. Of course, you must go to Mt.Athos - there is no place like it on earth; you can stand at look at the Holy Mountain, shrouded in clouds, the sun sparkling on the sea, and the sense of all the centuries and centuries of holy monastic prayers. I am so happy for you!
Our Church has two convents and one men's monastery in Australia, and our Archbishop of Sydney and New Zealand is a most kind, thoughtful and gentle man. all who meet him can see these qualities immediately. He is a member of this brotherhood, and we still miss him terribly. I hope that one day you can meet him. It must be hard, with such great distances between urban centers, although I know that there is a large and strong Greek community in Australia. I have known many Australians, and they are quite an amazing people, cheerful, rugged, brave soldiers, and are enthusiastic world travellers. I hope that we will hear of your pilgrimage to Greece. Bless you Adonis!

Warmly,

Hieromonk Averky

[Styparty]

Dear Friends, last night I was studying the daily readings for yesterday Isaiah 58 1:12 and Proverbs 21:23-22:4 concerning our behaviour during fast periods and I found that two of the items related directly to what I was doing on this forum.

Isaiah 58:1:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness,….

Proverbs 21:23 Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles…

The Dynamis commentary for yesterday concerning the Isaiah reading was : Verse 4 – How have I increased or decreased my quarreling during the Fast?

I was greatly disturbed and realized that I had been doing exactly what I shouldn’t have been doing. I wanted to go to my computer right away and apologize for my insensitivity but decided this morning would do just as well. When I opened my mail this morning I found a couple of Monarchos messages that proved how right I was to be upset last night.

I’d like to apologize to everyone for discussing such a sensitive subject during Lent and I sincerely hope that I haven’t caused too much distress. I have not changed my opinions on the subject we have been discussing but I consider that it is very inappropriate at such a time. I ask for your forgiveness.

Effie

[Styparty]

George, I posted a reply to your last message yesterday. I now see that it's not here. I must have deleted it accidentally or something.

You write : "It is a big step, and of course I have many worries, but my heart can think of nothing else. Please pray for this sinner."

It's a big step but also a wonderful step, George.

I wish you all the best. And, even though I don't really know how much my prayers are worth, I will include you in them. Thank you for asking me.

Effie

[plaiskegizils]

Dear Euterpe,

Reading over what I said, I can see where you have every right to be offended, however, I was making an all-too casual observation of what little I know about Greek history, and I certainly did not mean to be condescening. I am old enough to remember Greece under King Paul and Queen Fredericka as a child, and I remember that she ended her days as a non-Christian. One of my relatives was in the near -vicinity of the London neighborhood where she had to knock on someone's door, begging them to let her in and save her from those who wanted to murder her in the street! And I remember the rather severe days of the Junta. My point was actually that many peoples seem do better under monarchies, and it has always surprised me that the Greeks, who are rightfully proud of their ancient heritage, the value of which cannot be estimated. seem to not speak very much of the wonders and accomplishments of the Byzantine empire under which the very basis of the teaching of the Orthodox Church was fostered and had the opportunity to succeed. It also surprises me that a country which is by vast majority Orthodox Christian has a socialist government - But as you see, I am only getting myself into more trouble, I will admit ignorance and promise to never again comment on the government of the Sovereign State of Greece.

I would like to say that as an an American and an Orthodox Christian and a priest and monk as well, I have visited Greece three times, once living in Athens for a few days short of a month, and while I had many blessed experiences related to Orthodoxy in Greece, I daily faced the discomfort of blatant anti-American sentiments from every level of society from taxi cab drivers to monks from Mt Athos to the clerk at the very expensive hotel where I was staying who would not give me change for $100.00 American, in U.S, dollars even though I explained to him I was leaving home for the United States the next day, and needed only a few Drachmas to pay for food and my taxi to the airport. And please, don't even talk to me about Americans being "arrogant, or condescending." I must tell you that I had just spent some time in Egypt, and found the Moslem Egyptian people to be much kinder, gentler, more cooperative and far more willing to help than in a nation which considers itself Christian. The one person whom I will always remember with much love and respect is His Emininence, Seraphim, Archbishop of Athens and of All Greece, who most graciously received me and blessed me, asking forgiveness for not being able to spend much time with me. It turns out, he was talking to members of the Socialist Greek government who were attempting to confiscate several hundreds of thousands of acres of Church land, to add to that which they had already taken. The presence of the icon of the Holy Theotokos"Axion Estin" in Athens ( Nov of 1987) produced such an outpouring of Faith on the part of the Greek people, that the government backed down

Forgive,me for I surely made a faux pax, but you will note, I am not in agreement at all with our government's having attacked Iraq at the time and in the manner we did. and I do not agree with that form of "democracy" we envision for other nations Every country, has its interests, and the interests of the government of a nation and the need of its people are often different matters altogether. sometimes it is important to divorce the actions of any given government from that of the sentiments and hearts of its people. Americans, like all people support their government but may not support all of its policies.

When I was a guest of the people of Greece, on more than one occasion, I was more often than not asked to pay more than others for meals, was left standing in the street as my taxi driver took all of the money I had given him, much more than I owed, and drove off. When I was going to Mt. Athos, after spending two hours to go the three blocks from my hotel to where I would buy a ticket to Thessaloniki by train because people kept sending me in different directions, the man at the window, shouted obscenities at me for being an American, and slammed his window shut in my face! In time I learned enough Greek to politely protest and point out that the person in front of me had just paid less than half than what I had been I told to pay, and the response was unpleasant mutterings, sometimes obscene gestures. When we went to a well known ecclesiastical tailor, the owner was not there, and the lady in his shop told us that a set of vestments was usually $375,00 American, but that he always gave a better price, when we returned the next day, he said, "Dear Pateras from America, my vestments are usually $575.00 a set, but for you only, $475.00! We found much nicer vestments in Thessaloniki for $275.00 I always tried to give the Greek citizenery the benefit of the doubt, hoping that I had run into anti-clerical unbelievers, but there seemed to be a great number of them! I always wore my zostiko and rasso, and since I pick up languages very quickly, I could soon get around Athens, and buy things and order food with relative ease. Several times. when I was with another American priest monk, young men would spit on the sidewalk in front of us! Amazing and memorable experiences indeed!

We Americans can indeed be arrogant and condescending, but in general, visitors from other countries are treated kindly with interest and very warmly. I have seen many Americans attempting by sign language and kind expressions, to help foreign visitors. We make many mistakes, but we are a generous people, opening our hearts and wallets to others in need. Before the total surprise of 911, we Americans had an almost child-like trust and eagerness to welcome foreigners to our nation. Recently, on the BBC, a Swiss political analyst talking about the War in Iraq, stated that the peoples of the world, and perhaps particularly those of Europe, cannot begin to comprehend the traumatic effect effect of 911 on the American people. We are a new nation, and we do not have a history of long fought out wars, religious strife, invasions, domination bya foreign power, burning of cities, religious sites, pillaging, looting and wanton murder. We are like a spoiled child, having what we want,and we have the ability to invent, perfect, and mass produce millions of items useful to us and others, Our perspective of the world has almost no knowledge of suffering, and we have been a strong and secure nation and among the first powers of the world for nearly a century. We cannot even begin to imagine what other nations have had to go throught just to be able to have freely elected officials, a fair judiciary, and an army which does not bring terror to its own citizens.We truly felt that Saddam Hussein was a threat to not only our nation's security, but to the whole world if he could ever have the ability to produce nuclear weapons, as he was attempting to do before the American intervention in 1991 -remember, Iraq is much closer to Greece than it is to the U.S. Americans were sickened by a governement which tortured and raped its own citizens, beat and imprisoned Olympiads who did not bring home a Gold Medal, destroyed minorites with poisonous gas. Americans also know that again, because of its political "interests", the U.S. government unwittingly gave terrible weapons to the wrong people such as it did to the Taliban when it was fighting against the former Soviet Union. We are facing a very serious situation in North Korea, where the president has broken all promises and treaties, openly manufacturing nuclear missiles capable of striking Los Angeles. We bear no long time hatred, we do not hate the Iranians for taking our people hostage, or the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbor; we cannot conceive of the hatred that the Greeks have for the Turks, the Palestinians for the Israelis. We might not be happy that France has given us such a hard time in the U.N.[ and sensible people America see their point, and respect it!] but we could not possibly even think of hating the French people, never forgiving them, wanting to take revenge upon them from generation to generation.There are a few foolish people in America who have renamed "French Fries,""Freedom Fries, " and only for awhile, but that is childish and laughable. (By the way, nobody in the entire world can fry potatoes like the Greeks, nobody!) Yes, we come barging into situations, disregarding at times the feelings of others, but in our rather silly way, we sincerley want to protect the rights and freedoms of our allies. We look to Greece as a long time friend time ally, and its freedom, prosperity, and interests are important to the American people. We do not see smaller nations as "inferior," for each country adds to our national well-being, and is, after all, an important part of the foundation and an indifvidual contributor to the greatness of our own country. As our national motto says "E pluribus unum," "From many, One." Greek American are part of that "One", and so are Irish, Italians, Turks, Jews, Chinese, Laotians, East Indians, Sikhs, Saudis, Russians, British, French, Mexicans, Colombians, Peruvians, Indonesians, all the peoples of the world are "our" people and we love and cherish them and their cultural heritage as part of our own. It is the contribution of the talents and gifts of all the nations of the world that have made us great, and we in turn have offered them the ability to not be bound by a family name, or a class, or wealth, or religion: they can be a millionare, or a live in the woods, they have the freedom to question the government, to protest, and to participate in civil disobedience. Before the war in Irag, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Americns staged protests in American cities, and in New York, the mayor ordered a "hands off policy" on the part of the police, protecting the precious right of our people t openly disgree with our government, yet to be regarded as good and loyal citizens of a free nation. Americans have the freedom of speech, of religion, to bear arms, to have a clear and free voice in their government. We have many faults and sins, but we have much that is good and in our hearts wish freely to share it with our fiends and the less fortunate of the world. Forgive us our arrogance, we really don't mean to be.

There are over three million Greeks in the United States, who constitute this nation's wealthiest minority group, and Greek culture is well-known, appreciated and supported by the Greek's fellow Americans. Where there is a Greek Orthodox parish of any size, all local residents of a town or city look forward to the annual "Greek Festival,"giving enthusiatic support, which often brings in enough money to support the parish for an entire year. Archbishop Demetrios is the most prominent Orthodox clergyman in America, bringing honor and dignity to not only the Greeks, but to all the Orthodox peoples of this country. Often, the Greek Archbishop of America has had the opportunity to meet with the President of the United States, freely expressing his concern with our polices which effects the Greek nation, and he is listened to with deep respect.

I am sorry to have offended you, I am painfully aware of what a failure America is when it comes to diplomacy, but it it is a great country, and staunchly defends the democratic rights of all men which is the noble flower of the people of Greece. We make our mistakes, but we are not alone in that, and I feel that many times we are judged much too harshly by nations we regard as our friends and whom we have supported militarily and financially over many years
.
My remark was an insentive one, made without any thought of its impact, and I truly regret it. all of us Americans are overly sensitive right now, too defensive, and much more nervous and afraid than you might imagine. We have never lived in fear of sudden attack before, and we are not good at dealing with it. To all of my Greek bretheren in this community, and to all members of the Greek Orthodox Church, I ask forgiveness-crossed a line, and will try not to do it again.


Fr. Averky

[easypokergonj]

Chris, I thought perhaps you might be interested in the following article.

"IRAQ
Unjustified war

Centre for International and Public Law, Australian National University
27-3-2003


It may be underway, but that doesn’t alter the fact that the war against Iraq is illegal, according to Chris Maxwell and Hilary Charlesworth

THE start of hostilities against Iraq must not be allowed to distract attention from the illegality of the war.

This action, which is sought to be justified as enforcement of Iraq's international obligations, is itself a fundamental violation of international law.

To the question “Has the Security Council authorised this war?”, there can be only one answer: of course not. The coalition of the willing refrained from seeking the Security Council’s specific authorisation in the past few weeks precisely because they knew it would be refused. Their decision not to put a further resolution after 1441 was candidly explained to the world: a resolution authorising war would not have commanded even a majority of votes on the council.

No question of a veto by France or Russia would have arisen, so clear was the lack of council support. And the ground of opposition – which was a matter of public record, in the deliberations of the council and beyond – was simple and readily comprehensible: the inspections process appeared to be working and, accordingly, the last resort precondition for war was not met.

Faced with these unpalatable truths, the proponents of the war have tried to stitch together a cloak of authorisation from stray threads in earlier council resolutions, stretching back as far as 1990 and 1991. They claim that implicit approval of the war is to be found in a combination of resolution 678 (1990), which sanctioned the use of force after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, resolution 687 (1991), which set out the ceasefire terms, and resolution 1441 (2002), which dealt with strengthening the procedures to monitor Iraq’s disposal of its weapons of mass destruction.

This attempt to invent a ‘continuing authorisation’ for war against Iraq is unconvincing. It is also disingenuous. For example, the coalition's interpretation of resolution 1441 conveniently ignores the fact – once again a matter of public record – that the US put up an initial version of that resolution, authorising the use of force if Iraq did not adequately comply with its terms, but withdrew the draft when it became clear that the proposal did not command the council’s support.

Likewise, the US and UK ambassadors to the UN said to the Security Council on November 8, 2002 that resolution 1441 contained “no hidden trigger for war”. How it could now be seriously suggested that resolution 1441 implicitly authorises force is beyond comprehension.

As for the 1990 and 1991 resolutions, the coalition is effectively saying: “We much prefer what the Security Council said about the first Gulf War and we’ll pretend that it applies to unforeseen events 13 years later.” This is as ludicrous as if the US President had learnt that the necessary resolution authorising this war was not going to pass both houses of Congress, but had pressed ahead undaunted, calling on congressional resolutions endorsing the 1991 war.

So we must be more vigilant than ever, lest the members of the coalition be as careless with international law in their conduct of the war as they have shown themselves to be in launching it.

International humanitarian law places important limits on the means and methods of warfare. The Geneva Conventions of 1949 (to which Iraq and all members of the coalition are parties) and their 1977 protocols set out some of these limits: for example, the prohibitions on targeting civilian populations and civilian infrastructure and causing extensive destruction of property not justified by military objectives.

Intentionally launching an attack knowing that it will cause “incidental” loss of life or injury to civilians “which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated” constitutes a war crime at international law. The military objective of disarming Iraq could not justify widespread harm to the Iraqi population.

The public statements of General Peter Cosgrove at the weekend suggest that the military commanders responsible for the deployment of Australian troops are paying careful attention to these legal constraints. But what confidence can we have that the same will be true of the onslaught on Baghdad, which is not under Australian control but in which Australia is complicit?

Prime Minister John Howard has referred repeatedly to his “passionate commitment” to the war against Iraq. Passion seems a curious driver for a war that undermines the system of collective security established by the UN charter, itself the product of lengthy negotiations.

The opening words of the charter serve as a sober reminder of what is at stake: “We the peoples of the UN determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war.” Those who would invoke the authority of international law should never forget that it is founded on a passion for peace.

Chris Maxwell is a barrister in Melbourne. Hilary Charlesworth is professor and director at the Centre for International and Public Law at the Australian National University in Canberra. This article originally appeared in the Australian."


Effie

[MadMark]

Dear Marian,
Thank you for your clarification, which points out the ignorance of my remark. Sometimes, even in every day discourse, we make statements out of hand, with bravado and false knowledge, igniting a fire storm as I just did.

Effie, I am sorry about my unpleasant memories of Greece, but they caused me a lot of pain at the time, for I remember how excitied I was to go to a predominantly Orthodox nation, only to be treated so badly and so consistenly, in almost all parts of the country. Only in Thessaloniki did I find people to be more kind and welcoming.. When I was there in l998, it seemed like a modern prosperous European nation, having lost some of its small country atmosphere, but I will say, I found the people more accustomed to us foreigners, and my stay, all too brief, was more plesant. I am sorry for my outburst, but reacting simply as an American, I am experiencing a lot of pain right now -the Iragi war has caused us to be hated by so many people all over the world, and it is not a pleasant feeling. watching the War, and the present looting and anarchy, lack of food and water, and the wounding of innocent citizens is extremely upsetting for all Americans, except for Mr. Rumsfield, who should have been retired years ago. He is too anxious to destroy other nations,and that is not what is in our hearts. We sincerely wanted to help the Iraqi people. but our armies moved too fast, and we overlooked all the suffering such a quick war would cause. I am sorry, I am just very upset by all of this.

I am a Russian Orthodox Christian for over thirty years, more than half my life. but I also am very much an American, and I love and cherish my country as much as you do Effie, and I suffer when we as a nation are misunderstood and condemned by those whom we have helped so many times over the years, and when I visit another country and am treated badly just because I am an "American," and not a person.

If I had my choice as to where to live, I would move to Rome tomorrow, for I have never loved a city in the whole world as I do that ancient center of the world. I loved the Romans, who were so gracious and joyous to share their wonderful city with me. In my short two week stay, I got to know waiters, resterauters, a bishop, shop keepers, a convent of nuns, two tour guides, and an opera singer. I attended a canonization st St. Peter's, and was offered a seat in third row, dircetly in front of the Pope, but declined, saying I had to go to Liturgy at the Russian church, but was invited to tour part of the Vatican Plalace at a later date. Whenever I was in the Vatican Museums, I was treated with respect, and many Catholic Pilgrimage groups knelt and asked my blessing, even when I told them I was Orthodox - one pious nun said, "But Father you look so much like a priest!" It was an amazement to have two hundred Argentinian pilgrims piously kneel to receive God's blessing, which I imparted to them in Latin, the ancient and beautiful language of Rome. My heart longs for that city, its air, its beautiful structures, its musuems, it delicious food, its multitude of churches, beautiful music and its lovely people...There is a Small Russian Orthodox community there near Santa Maria Maggiore, and I was received as a brother by the young priest from Moscow and his kind and attentive parishioners.

So many of us can see that our government again has made a diplomatic blunder, offending its friends and allies, it is our biggest weaknes, but we as individual citizens do the best we can; but we do, as did I make mistakes. I had no intention of offending anyone - I really was not thinking.

Fr. Averky

[reiseebup]

Dear members of this Casual & Personal Conversation » Politics: America & Greece thread,

A brief message to let you know that I have transferred the messages from this thread which deal with Orthodox views on war, including the specific war in Iraq, to the Doctrine and Theology » Orthodoxy and the War thread. The discussion there is already focusing on some of the questions recently being addressed in related posts here; thus they have been consolodated into a single discussion.

With comments and conversation on Orthodox views towards war, please post to that thread; and we shall keep this one reserved for discussion that meets with its title.

With thanks INXC, Matthew

[easypokergonj]

Dear Father Averky, feelings are running very high at the moment because of what is happening in Iraq. Anti-American feeling here in Greece is a fact of life because of the Right –Wing Junta that was helped into power by the US in 1965.
I have to confess that I could never understand why people were so anti-American before I came to Greece but I must admit that the bombing in Yugoslavia affected me as it did most other people here. Afghanistan and Iraq have only served to reinforce the negative opinion most Greeks have of the US.

It’s a shame that we can’t look through each other’s eyes and live each other’s experiences, isn’t it? We might better understand each other if we could. I don’t think anyone can forget the scenes we saw of the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and I know that many, many kind-hearted Greeks contributed money and goods that were sent to New York. At the same time we are devastated by the pictures we have been seeing the last week or so and again we have sent tons of goods and medicines to the Iraqi people.

- Greeks are very complicated. They are very religious but at the same time they are very cynical about priests, and I don’t think you even want to know what most of them think of monks! They are very, very hospitable but, at the same time, they are apparently capable of acting the way you described. I’m not insinuating that what you recounted wasn’t true, just that I’ve never experienced anything like that – although one instance does come to mind. I was travelling to Kozani from Thessaloniki once and a young American monk was sitting across the aisle from me. He had been to Mt. Athos and was travelling to Kozani to stay with friends. We started talking and he told me how surprised he was by the negative reaction some Greeks had to his clothing (rassa). I think though that some Italians have the same reaction to Roman Catholic priests – even spitting over their shoulders in order to ward off bad luck. I think that this is a reaction that someone might expect from people who don’t think deeply about certain things.

- Father Averky, things have changed here in Greece in the last 20 years or so. And, as I’ve already mentioned in a previous message, I think that television is to blame to a certain extent. Yes, during summer, young women proud of their bodies tend to display a fair amount of skin, but surely that’s normal in most countries today, especially the US. In church, young people are always dressed both modestly and tastefully and they are a credit to their parents. It’s up to us not to allow ourselves to be influenced by a pretty face or an attractive body. One of the prayers I usually read at night is the Prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian to the Most Holy Spirit. In this evening prayer St. Ephrem asks pardon for sins, known and unknown, that he committed during the day. One line goes :

“……. Or have seen the attraction of someone and been wounded by it in my heart…….”

-I’m sorry that you were treated so shabbily in Greece and I apologize for the way these few poor ignorant souls behaved. Greeks aren’t like that. They are decent and warm-hearted.

-We all agree that Saddam Hussein was a vicious dictator but we disagree with the method selected to remove him. I think the fact that he abandoned his people in their hour of need says it all. If he had intended to leave he should have left before the bombing started. A lot of innocent people died unnecessarily because of his arrogance (that word again) and his cowardice.

I think that what most people are afraid of (the millions of people all over the world who demonstrated against the invasion of Iraq) is the precedent set by the US in its policy of illegal pre-emptive strikes against sovereign nations. Let’s also pray that the US is sincere when it assures us that the wealth of Iraq’s oil-fields will benefit the Iraqi people and not international oil companies.



Let’s agree that all nations and all peoples have both negative and positive attributes, shall we? Arrogance is not something that only Americans have – Greeks have their fair share of it as well.

Thank you Father Averky for your explanation and I accept your apology. I also apologize for reacting so strongly and I hope that you’ll forgive me as well.

Effie

We seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest on the forum. It's sometimes hard to keep to just one subject because one thing sometimes seems to lead to another.

[floadaVonfoli]

Dear Effie,
Thank you for sharing that information. I had no idea Kiwis were remembered in Greece and Crete! Actually this coming Friday (Holy Friday) is a national holiday here, ANZAC Day when we remember all those that have died in the various wars we have been in. You are right that it is important that we remember these things, as so often people make the same mistakes. I think for many New Zealanders and Australians, ANZAC Day is a very important day.
And this year of course it is on the same day as Our Lord's crucifiction!
You know, the first Orthodox service I ever attended was in the evening of Holy Friday, at the Holy Resurrection Cathedral in Tokyo, (a few years ago now), and God truly touched my heart and innermost being that evening, and slowly I learned more about the Church, joined the choir, was Baptised, and completely unworthily became an Altar server. God willing, I will be returning to Japan in a few months to start study at the Seminary in Tokyo. It is a big step, and of course I have many worries, but my heart can think of nothing else. Please pray for this sinner.
With love in Christ
George

[floadaVonfoli]

Effie,
Thank you for sharing the prayer for peace! (It was not in my prayerbook).
It is so sad to think how much violence we people commit against each other and against God, too. One of the most harrowing places I have visited is the Peace Museum in Hiroshima, there are no words to describe it, it is a place which needs to be seen to be believed (though of course outside the museum Hiroshima is a perfectly normal Japanese City.) In Nagasaki I saw a Roman Catholic Church rebuilt among the ruins of the original church which was destroyed in the atomic bombing.