[Zoxeeoy]

I forget, how many hundreds of millions of people did those affect?

Listen dawg, if you going to jump all over another country because they lost power and use it as a symbol of it being a crap hole, than you probably shouldn't live in the United States. But if my memory serves, it was all the way from Ohio to NYC, so we are talking lots of freaking people and lots of lost revenue, and it is going to happen again. Considering that India has a population of a billion, a power outage anywhere is gonna get you to 100 million pretty fast.

[BPitt]

I believe you erected the goal post in question.

Quick question, if India is so great, why aren't you in India?

you can re-read the thread, as can others. you said India was great in its ancient history but that what has it done recently? when provided with two examples where Indian contribution has been significant to move the ball of humankind's knowledge up the mountain, you come back and tell me that oh, that's just one person in a billion. That's called moving goal posts. Not that it matters, since genius is human and not bound by nationalities...and as I already said in a conciliatory manner, that societies build on the progress of past generations... only a fool dismisses everything that came before.

as to why i'm here-- that's none of your business.

[BPitt]

So anyways, no electricity is more like 19th century or maybe even the Jersey shore in hurricane season. Stone age means, before iron, industrialization, cars - not "damn I have go out and get some deisel for my private backup generator".

haha good point. Caterpillar probably has a booming business selling its diesel gen sets to Indians...

[Trercakaressy]

Listen dawg, if you going to jump all over another country because they lost power and use it as a symbol of it being a crap hole, than you probably shouldn't live in the United States. But if my memory serves, it was all the way from Ohio to NYC, so we are talking lots of freaking people and lots of lost revenue, and it is going to happen again. Considering that India has a population of a billion, a power outage anywhere is gonna get you to 100 million pretty fast.

First, I don't know what a dawg is. Second, I wasn't really dumping on India. I just spied what was bound to be a hyper sensitive individual as soon as he started waxing reverentially about ancient philosophy and decided to run with it.

But the fact is, much of India is squalor and filth. 1/3 of all the poor in the world live there. And a large part of the reason is the caste system, which is pretty freakin' backwards and pretty freakin' widespread over there.

I'll ask you the same question. If it's so great, why aren't you there?

[Trercakaressy]

genius is human and not bound by nationalities

Which is why your example was irrelevant.

as to why i'm here-- that's none of your business. Well it's either because, A) you're here against your will. or B) you believe you have a better life here than you would there.

Since you seem to be implying the answer is not B), which washy washy house are you giving rub downs in?

[BPitt]

Listen dawg, if you going to jump all over another country because they lost power and use it as a symbol of it being a crap hole, than you probably shouldn't live in the United States. But if my memory serves, it was all the way from Ohio to NYC, so we are talking lots of freaking people and lots of lost revenue, and it is going to happen again. Considering that India has a population of a billion, a power outage anywhere is gonna get you to 100 million pretty fast.

yep, all good points. there's even a wiki for it:
The blackout affected an estimated 10 million people in Ontario and 45 million people in eight U.S. states. At the time, it was the second most widespread blackout in history, second only to one in Brazil that happened in 1999!

Northeast blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


None of this negates the point that India has still much to improve upon (which is why it is an emerging economy), but it's not in the stone age either...and its society and economy are more open (and better?) than many others around the world.

[Si8jy8HN]

Since you seem to be implying the answer is not B), which washy washy house are you giving rub downs in?

So you can go patronize him? Now I see where all this displaced aggression is coming from. Interesting.

[Zoxeeoy]

First, I don't know what a dawg is. Second, I wasn't really dumping on India. I just spied what was bound to be a hyper sensitive individual as soon as he started waxing reverentially about ancient philosophy and decided to run with it.

But the fact is, much of India is squalor and filth. 1/3 of all the poor in the world live there. And a large part of the reason is the caste system, which is pretty freakin' backwards and pretty freakin' widespread over there.

I'll ask you the same question. If it's so great, why aren't you there?

You don't know what dawg means? Have you never enjoyed the fine TV that is Randy Jackson? Or never hung out with a hip black dude in the 30-50 range?

I didn't say it was great, but jumping on a country for this particular issue is throwing some bricks in a glass house.

Honestly, India is in a lot of trouble. I could go on for days about that. But the anti-India tone annoyed me. Just like when some dude from LA craps on Philly because he watched an Eagles game in the 80s.

[BPitt]

First, I don't know what a dawg is. Second, I wasn't really dumping on India. I just spied what was bound to be a hyper sensitive individual as soon as he started waxing reverentially about ancient philosophy and decided to run with it.

But the fact is, much of India is squalor and filth. 1/3 of all the poor in the world live there. And a large part of the reason is the caste system, which is pretty freakin' backwards and pretty freakin' widespread over there.

I'll ask you the same question. If it's so great, why aren't you there?

1/6th of the world lives there... what do you expect? and not everything in india has to do with caste system. not that discrimination and racism doesn't exist in America...any number of stats show that it does.

No, you weren't *really* dumping on India... I wonder what that would amount to. You're clueless. Keep on backpedaling, now that you're called out.

[Si8jy8HN]

and its society and economy are more open (and better?) than many others around the world.

This is no small point. India is the largest stable multi-cultural democracy in the world, despite having a truly vast number of people living in poverty (despite the emerging middle class). Its rather impressive to have been a stable democratic country for so long with so many languages, such extreme divergences of wealth and culture.

[BPitt]

Which is why your example was irrelevant.

Some guy equates a utility breakdown to going back to Stone Age, and another quips that the country never exited the Stone Age. You don't think that is bagging on a people, a nation that's home to 1/6th of the human race?! May be nobody else cared, but I cared enough to jump-in and state the obvious... which, to you, rubbed the wrong way... some how, and so got into mud-slinging yourself.

[sesWaipunsaws]

This is no small point. India is the largest stable multi-cultural democracy in the world, despite having a truly vast number of people living in poverty (despite the emerging middle class). Its rather impressive to have been a stable democratic country for so long with so many languages, such extreme divergences of wealth and culture.

"multi-cultural democracy"? You forget when a Gandi family member won an election some years ago and there was a xenophobic backlash because she was Italian and she had to step down because she wasn't Indian enough.

So much for your multi culti democracy.

[DeilMikina]

In case you were wondering why you couldn't reach your favorite tech support call center the past 2 days:

Half of India Crippled by Second Day of Power Failures - NYT

and an older article with an interesting bit of context (found while looking for the obligatory photo of typical rat's nest utility wiring in India):

Indian officials wage war on energy theft | The Daily Reporter - WI Construction News & Bids

india wires - Google Search

[BPitt]

hah-- India's current government is hobbled with inefficient leadership and fractured coalition politics. Even if that weren't the case, most of the time Indian government only does things when it is *forced* into taking action. This power grid crisis hopefully will be one such thing that leads to the Indian government finally enacting some reforms in the coal mining, power generating, and electric distribution sectors.

India is the world second or third biggest holder of coal deposits, yet it has to import coal from Australia, Indonesia, and even the U.S. This is because most of the coal mines are run by the biggest coal company in the world, the inefficient and antiquated Coal India Ltd.

India also relies on that coal for more than 50% of its generating capacity. But this coal is so dirty and the Indian generating stations are as unabated of air pollutants as the worst ones in western PA, which are now shutting down finally. In India's case, more coal-fired fleet is being built, without so much as a fraction of money poured for environmental controls.

Third, the weather most likely has been a big factor in these outages mostly because Indian government gives away power for free to the farmers, who thus don't value it or the water (irrigated from canals or brought up from aquifers via electric pumps)...thus potentially leading to twin crises of low water table/desertification, and erratic electricity usage and distribution. There has to be a price paid...sooner or later. The monsoon has been late coming to India this summer so the farmers are probably running the water pumps more; the city-dwellers are running their a/c's more due to more heat days; all this extra draw on the power grid which is anyway undersupplied by at least 10% at any given time, probably would be too much.


Basically, civil infrastructure and the rule of law is what divides a developed country from a developing one. India is obviously still a developing country, because while it has rule of law-- not everyone follows the rules, and certainly it severely lacks fundamental civil infrastructure or can't keep pace with its population growth: roads, highways, sewers, drinking water, electric grid, the internet.

America too needs to update its infrastructure... to the tune of many hundreds of billions of dollars.

[BPitt]

The idiot government minister running Coal India Ltd, for example, crows about taking decisions in the interest of the people, in socialist economic style. I wonder how the people's interest is served now that his company can't produce enough coal to supply the utilities. Or the power distribution minister, whose grid can't handle all the demand being put on it.

It takes an outsider, again, to kick Indian government into some sanity...not sure the current government will ever get it, though. Congress Party is the one that has ruled over the country like its personal fiefdom. The few years the BJP was in power in the late 1990s, early 2000s, ushered in sustained economic growth and liberalization, lifting millions of Indians out of poverty and into its middle class.

The Children's Investment Fund Wages Battle With Coal India - NYTimes.com

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[Eh085zE7]

Agree the BJP was better economically...but it seems the BJP couldn't get re-elected without a divisive social issue driving out their vote. What gives?

[JANALA]

did they ever get out of the stone age?

In case you were wondering why you couldn't reach your favorite tech support call center the past 2 days:

Half of India Crippled by Second Day of Power Failures - NYT

and an older article with an interesting bit of context (found while looking for the obligatory photo of typical rat's nest utility wiring in India):

Indian officials wage war on energy theft | The Daily Reporter - WI Construction News & Bids

india wires - Google Search

[BPitt]

did they ever get out of the stone age?

go easy now. considering India is home to one of the earliest continuous and extant civilizations on this planet, it may be likely that Indians were writing philosophy while your ancestors were still up in the trees.

[BPitt]

Agree the BJP was better economically...but it seems the BJP couldn't get re-elected without a divisive social issue driving out their vote. What gives?

retail politics in India is still about class and religion, I'm afraid. Where it has changed to issues of governance and development, the BJP has more consistently won... in places like Karnataka, Goa, Bihar, and of course Gujarat. And BJP has its baggage as an upper caste and anti-Muslim party, which as you know, is as great a poison in Indian politics as someone labeling you a Commie in America, or a Nazi in Germany. Lastly, BJP has not yet developed a nationally-popular charismatic figure to run for the prime minister's office...their last generation of leaders are getting very old,

thanks in no small part, to the regional political parties and their power bases-- which the Congress is better at picking off due to its historic strength and the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty at its helm...BJP has to keep fighting smaller battles at state level while nationally it can't seem to project a leadership that is popular.

[RerRibreLok]

Must be their lack of culture and providence.