[Sydaycymn]

It's not meant as an excuse in any way. I'm just pointing out that those who are critical of The Church, yet turn a blind eye towards a much larger, ongoing, unremedied threat, because it's attached to state run, liberal, institutions are guilty of selective outrage at best, and anti-Catholic deciet at worst.

It really sounds like you are projecting on this one. How many teachers have made the front page for sexual abuse cases? I can think of quite a few and we also just had the story about the school district using their computers to spy on kids. When was the last time a priest made the front page?

Also, how many Religious schools are around compared to Public Schools? 1 out of 50?

[gechaheritt]

Riiiiight. Cardinal Bevelaqua didn't disclose the information so the victims were left helpless and unable to persue a criminal complaint or civil action, because as we all know, without approval of The Cardinal, we're all unable to act on anything.

You're clearly not a lawyer.

I am a lawyer. So is Cardinal Bevilacqua. Did you know that? And I read the FULL Grand Jury report on abuse by priests in Philadelphia DA. Did you? Obviously not. It provided evidence about the cover up by the Philadelphia Catholic church leaders, especially Cardinal Bevilacqua. You know what EVIDENCE is right? I advise you read it. But you probably will not as your head is clearly in the sand as you won't face the truth about your church.

I know your type. They're in my family. They refuse to believe that their beloved priests would do such things as sodomize children and then cover it up and they simply look the other way. Very sad. As are you.

"Despite the common perception that clergy who sexually assault children are almost never punished, more than 70 priests and ministers have been sent to prison for child molestation since 1985. I think that's great and I am glad to hear it. But it's not enough. It's simply an outrage that thousands of other molesting priests escaped justice. But I guess they will suffer the fires of hell eh Viburnum? Or does the Lord give them a free pass because they pray a lot?

"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready."
--Psalm 7:11,12

[wsbizwsa]

It really sounds like you are projecting on this one. How many teachers have made the front page for sexual abuse cases? I can think of quite a few and we also just had the story about the school district using their computers to spy on kids. When was the last time a priest made the front page?

Also, how many Religious schools are around compared to Public Schools? 1 out of 50?

It is projecting. And this also isn't a problem with just the Church in America. It's a crisis for the Catholic Church worldwide.

It also goes up all the way to the very very top of the entire organization - Pope Benedict. The Secretary of Education isn't personally shuffling around abusive teachers. I'm not defending public schools that fail to look into potentially abusive teachers. But it's just shifting blame away from abusive priests. It's just a way to shift the blame away and get to point the finger at something associated with the American government and does nothing to prevent abuse in the Catholic Church, provide justice for the victims and make sure the abusers are held responsible for their crimes and their sins.

[standaman]

Originally Posted by Bulworth67
And our Cardinal purposely delayed disclosure of the abuse so as to avoid both civil and criminal liability.

Riiiiight. Cardinal Bevelaqua didn't disclose the information so the victims were left helpless and unable to persue a criminal complaint or civil action, because as we all know, without approval of The Cardinal, we're all unable to act on anything.

I believe I have a little inside information about this. What Bulworth67 said might be true; however, there are some other issues involved.

The first is that the Archdiocese combed the files of priests started with their enrollment at the Seminary where remarks could be added to their student files without any oversight or explanation and at any time and the student wouldn't know about this. For example, "interested in girls" could be put into a file about a student which would have one context at the Seminary and a different one if he was accused of abusing a girl. The Archdiocese attempted to establish context for these kind of remarks. For example the above student might have read "Little Women" and seeing this student with the book an over zealous professor might make such a remark.

I'm not excusing Card. Bevelaqua, or Card. Krol, or his predecessors, but innocent priests shouldn't have to pay for careless remarks in their official files.

[gechaheritt]

Originally Posted by Bulworth67
And our Cardinal purposely delayed disclosure of the abuse so as to avoid both civil and criminal liability.



I believe I have a little inside information about this. What Bulworth67 said might be true; however, there are some other issues involved.

The first is that the Archdiocese combed the files of priests started with their enrollment at the Seminary where remarks could be added to their student files without any oversight or explanation and at any time and the student wouldn't know about this. For example, "interested in girls" could be put into a file about a student which would have one context at the Seminary and a different one if he was accused of abusing a girl. The Archdiocese attempted to establish context for these kind of remarks. For example the above student might have read "Little Women" and seeing this student with the book an over zealous professor might make such a remark.

I'm not excusing Card. Bevelaqua, or Card. Krol, or his predecessors, but innocent priests shouldn't have to pay for careless remarks in their official files.

From 2005 the Grand Jury Report:

"Cardinal Bevilacqua was trained as an attorney. (He holds degrees in Canon law
from Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, Italy, and in American law from St.
Johns’ University Law School in Queens, New York.) The Grand Jurors find that, in his
handling of priests’ sexual abuse, Cardinal Bevilacqua was motivated by an intent to keep
the record clear of evidence that would implicate him or the Archdiocese. To this end, he
continued many of the practices of his predecessor, Cardinal Krol, aimed at avoiding
scandal, while also introducing policies that reflected a growing awareness that dioceses
and bishops might be held legally responsible for their negligent and knowing actions
that abetted known abusers.
To protect themselves from negative publicity or expensive lawsuits – while
keeping abusive priests active – the Cardinals and their aides hid the priests’ crimes from
parishioners, police, and the general public. They employed a variety of tactics to
accomplish this end."

Here is the link. See page 31 et seq.

http://www.philadelphiadistrictattor...ury_Report.pdf

Let's see if Viburnum has the balls to actually read it.

[Prererularl]

It really sounds like you are projecting on this one. How many teachers have made the front page for sexual abuse cases? I can think of quite a few and we also just had the story about the school district using their computers to spy on kids. When was the last time a priest made the front page?

Also, how many Religious schools are around compared to Public Schools? 1 out of 50?

The distinction is that the teacher assaults are an ongoing problem, whereas, when it's The Church, it's incidents that happened, 20, 30, 40, or more years ago.

If public schools would only take the step of banning homosexuals from any possition where they have contact with children (as The Church refuses to ordain homosexuals), it would put a good dent into the problem. Yet, this simple concept isn't even considered.

[Prererularl]

I am a lawyer. So is Cardinal Bevilacqua. Did you know that? And I read the FULL Grand Jury report on abuse by priests in Philadelphia DA.

You abandoned any credibility as to your reading anything long ago.

[gechaheritt]

You abandoned any credibility as to your reading anything long ago.

Your typical cowardly attempt to address the issue. Shoot the messenger.
You are a coward.

[gechaheritt]

The distinction is that the teacher assaults are an ongoing problem, whereas, when it's The Church, it's incidents that happened, 20, 30, 40, or more years ago.

If public schools would only take the step of banning homosexuals from any possition where they have contact with children (as The Church refuses to ordain homosexuals), it would put a good dent into the problem. Yet, this simple concept isn't even considered.

You are now exposed as a bigot.

So then I guess we must also ban heterosexual priests that molest and impregnate women?

From the 2005 Grand Jury Report:

"► A girl, 11 years old, was raped by her priest and became pregnant. The Father
took her in for an abortion.
► A 5th-grader was molested by her priest inside the confessional booth.
► A teenage girl was groped by her priest while she lay immobilized in traction in
a hospital bed. The priest stopped only when the girl was able to ring for a
nurse."

[Sydaycymn]

The distinction is that the teacher assaults are an ongoing problem, whereas, when it's The Church, it's incidents that happened, 20, 30, 40, or more years ago.

If public schools would only take the step of banning homosexuals from any possition where they have contact with children (as The Church refuses to ordain homosexuals), it would put a good dent into the problem. Yet, this simple concept isn't even considered.

Right... the homosexuals are to blame. Got it. I always thought there was a difference between homo's and pedo's, but I guess I'm wrong.


20, 30, 40, or more years ago....

A lot of sexual abuse cases are like that. The kids feel ashamed and are afraid to come forward. That doesn't mean it still isn't happening today.

[wsbizwsa]

Right... the homosexuals are to blame. Got it. I always thought there was a difference between homo's and pedo's, but I guess I'm wrong.


20, 30, 40, or more years ago....

A lot of sexual abuse cases are like that. The kids feel ashamed and are afraid to come forward. That doesn't mean it still isn't happening today.

This conversation with him is pointless. He's just trying to blame the liberals and the gays and deflect the seriousness of the Church's handling of the abuse by pointing out that OMG! Pedophiles totally exist elsewhere! And you can simultaneously discuss abuse in public schools and the church.

And it doesn't matter how many times we repeat that FACT that most homosexuals are not pedophiles, there are still people who believe that without the gays, the children of the world would be safe from sexual abuse.

And also - so what if the abuse took place 20, 30 years ago? It happened, it was a horrific crime and I'm sure that most of the victims didn't just shrug it off as time went by. Not to mention that the church is fighting awfully hard to make sure that the statute of limitations isn't extended so that they will have to face justice.

[Sydaycymn]

This conversation with him is pointless. He's just trying to blame the liberals and the gays and deflect the seriousness of the Church's handling of the abuse by pointing out that OMG! Pedophiles totally exist elsewhere! And you can simultaneously discuss abuse in public schools and the church.

And it doesn't matter how many times we repeat that FACT that most homosexuals are not pedophiles, there are still people who believe that without the gays, the children of the world would be safe from sexual abuse.

And also - so what if the abuse took place 20, 30 years ago? It happened, it was a horrific crime and I'm sure that most of the victims didn't just shrug it off as time went by. Not to mention that the church is fighting awfully hard to make sure that the statute of limitations isn't extended so that they will have to face justice.

Its annoying. It would be one thing if the people that usually front the holier than thou attitude could back it up, but this is just absurd. Its like arguing with a creationist.

[Prererularl]

Right... the homosexuals are to blame. Got it. I always thought there was a difference between homo's and pedo's, but I guess I'm wrong.

According to the John Jay Report, 81% of the victims were male. Yet, between only one and two percent of the population is homosexual. Do you think they're a little over-represented amongst child molesters?

A lot of sexual abuse cases are like that. The kids feel ashamed and are afraid to come forward. That doesn't mean it still isn't happening today.

Wait a minute, you had just finished stating that teachers are exposed for this every day. If it was still going on in The Church, at anywhere near the level it had been, why wouldn't we hear about it?

[Sydaycymn]

According to the John Jay Report, 81% of the victims were male. Yet, between only one and two percent of the population is homosexual. Do you think they're a little over-represented amongst child molesters?

Maybe more factors are at play than appear. Maybe pedo's think females are more prone to talk? Maybe boys are too embarassed? Who knows, but correlation doesn't equal cause.

Wait a minute, you had just finished stating that teachers are exposed for this every day. If it was still going on in The Church, at anywhere near the level it had been, why wouldn't we hear about it?

God works in MYSTERIOUS ways right?

[Prererularl]

Maybe more factors are at play than appear. Maybe pedo's think females are more prone to talk? Maybe boys are too embarassed? Who knows, but correlation doesn't equal cause.

Why would a strait pedophile/pederast be attracted to his (or possibly her) own sex?

[standaman]

According to the John Jay Report, 81% of the victims were male. Yet, between only one and two percent of the population is homosexual. Do you think they're a little over-represented amongst child molesters?...

The idea that homosexuals make up a large percentage of pedofiles has been dis-proven over time. Personally, I think most of these priests were looking for a vulnerable target, someone that would never tell and never be believed.

Then the question is why would there be a seemingly high percentage of pedofiles in the Catholic Church?

[Prererularl]

The idea that homosexuals make up a large percentage of pedofiles has been dis-proven over time. Personally, I think most of these priests were looking for a vulnerable target, someone that would never tell and never be believed.

Then the question is why would there be a seemingly high percentage of pedofiles in the Catholic Church?

Okay, let's prove your first point, and then, we'll examine your second point (Colin, I respect your intellect, although I disagree with most of your views.)

[Prererularl]

FWIW, and so we have a common context, I was up at Temple University in the past couple of weeks and noticed an incredible amount of 18-23 year olds that were extremely attractive, but 100% were female, so I don't buy someone just being attracted to someone of a certain age group.
Sex is a normal donominator.

[wsbizwsa]

Maybe more factors are at play than appear. Maybe pedo's think females are more prone to talk? Maybe boys are too embarassed? Who knows, but correlation doesn't equal cause.





God works in MYSTERIOUS ways right?

And also - were boys or girls more likely to be exposed to the priests in a fairly private setting? Now, the term is altar server, but for how long was it alter boy?

[wsbizwsa]

According to the John Jay Report, 81% of the victims were male. Yet, between only one and two percent of the population is homosexual. Do you think they're a little over-represented amongst child molesters?

And I've posted these studies before, but here you go -

Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexua... [Pediatrics. 1994] - PubMed result

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation

Why would a strait pedophile/pederast be attracted to his (or possibly her) own sex

Because they are attracted to children. Underage children, many of whom have not yet gone through puberty. This is not the same as being attracted to an adult of the same sex.

FWIW, and so we have a common context, I was up at Temple University in the past couple of weeks and noticed an incredible amount of 18-23 year olds that were extremely attractive, but 100% were female, so I don't buy someone just being attracted to someone of a certain age group.

How is this the related to the abuse of underage boys, many of them who had yet to even go through puberty? 18-year-old females are adult women - you may engage in a sexual relationship with one, as long as it is consensual. Are you attracted to 13-year-old girls? Girls who have yet to experience puberty? If a 40-year-old man rapes a 14-year-old girl is he a rapist/pedophile or merely a heterosexual?