[ljq0AYOV]

S Korea said that over a week ago. Why should my father have had to serve there in
the US Army, and another friend at the Frozen Chosin with the 1st MarDiv, while they
make scant effort to defend themselves?

I can tell you why as opposed to asking a stupid question: No Balls.

From a strategic standpoint I understand that the south maintains their capital of
Seoul within 1/2 hour of being overun by the north.

YO, move the capital!

[scemHeish]

The answer is pretty simple. Money.

A) The South is more interested in developing their economy into a real powerhouse than it is fighting a war, which would have a pretty negative impact on their economy.

B) If the South beats the North, reunification has to happen. The cost of feeding, clothing, providing medical care, police and fire protection, and the myriad of other things they would have to provide for their newly freed Northern brothers is going to be immense. Probably to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars, seeing as how right now pretty much the entirety of North Korea is starving. With an already damp economy and the Western world already looking at austere budgets, they can't even be sure they'd get foreign aid for that portion of it.

Then there's the threat of civilian death due to the proximity of Seoul to the DMZ. It's incredibly doubtful that NK would be able to do any major damage to Seoul, unless they get their missile batteries online and they are destroyed in airstrikes, and there's certainly probably not a big threat of any ground assault getting in there, but nonetheless it's a real issue. I think SK is getting pretty sick of the bull**** though. I think they're waiting for the collapse of NK rather than having to risk lives to get what they want, but there's only so much they're going to be willing to take.

[ljq0AYOV]

I guess I'm just wondering why we still maintain an American army in on the DMZ after 50 some years.

[zawhmqswly]

Because the war is not over. Its only a ceasefire.

[22CreessGah]

Because the war is not over. Its only a ceasefire.

Quite so. And in addition, in the "you break it, you own it" department, it was the United States that developed the notion of a partition in 1945 and imposed the arbitrary and silly 38th parallel dividing line. We put the South Koreans (and the North Koreans, for that matter) in this unstable position - we owe them.

[ljq0AYOV]

Very good reminders. Somehow you just feel that China may like it this way also. Probably the last thing they want is a
democracy on their border.

[22CreessGah]

Very good reminders. Somehow you just feel that China may like it this way also. Probably the last thing they want is a
democracy on their border.

The Chinese, I suspect, are of two minds. They fought an extremely expensive war to keep Korea from being unified in 1952 and '53, and they have invested a lot of money and political capital in maintaining the status quo ever since. At the same time, I suspect they are tiring of North Korea's dangerous antics, particularly as the Chinese government and society transitions away from Maoist ideology to more of an authoritarian capitalism - the Chinese would dearly over access to the thriving Korean economy. That is why, it seems, they have been surprisingly quiet to have the U.S.S. George Washington prowling around in striking distance of China - this time last year, they howled with outrage when we even floated the idea of allowing the Washington to visit the area on an entirely peaceful mission. But now they may realize the utility of allowing the U.S. to do the saber-rattling dirty work. By simply sitting by quietly, they get the benefit of watching someone powerful threaten the North Koreans without having to go through the political humliation of doing it themselves.

[ljq0AYOV]

I just did some catch-up reading on the subject and the contradictions there are mind boggling. They want us there, but
want us out? Talk about wacky. They don't know what they want. Apparently with the Wikileaks documents was one
where the Chinese consider the north to be expendable, and maybe soon. I guess it's good the south didn't retaliate as
they may be getting back together soon.

[scemHeish]

I guess I'm just wondering why we still maintain an American army in on the DMZ after 50 some years.

Some others have pointed out the "you break it, you bought it concept", but there's an even bigger reason than that.

It's an incredibly great strategic point to station armies. It puts all of Northeast Asia in striking range of the Air Force, provides convenient harbors for American vessels operating in the area, and is in the midst of a very powerful allied military in South Korea. Obviously there are some redundancies between SK and Japan, but the difference is that SK isn't chasing us out. They're nowhere near as xenophobic as Japan is.

They're also an incredibly valuable economic partner, so there's a perk in protecting them from aggression. In fact, having US Muscle is a large reason that they were able to flourish economically, as they didn't have to get into an arms race with the North. It's actually a pretty damn convenient partnership for both sides as it currently stands. They get defense, the freedom to develop their economy, and a great trade partner, we get an incredible strategic position, keep some enemies in check, and get cheap foreign goods.

And good TV shows.

Oh, and Girl's Generation... My god dem legs.

[catarleriarly]

As you mentioned TV shows, if you watch the historical drama, regardless of the historical accuracy, Koreans are xenophobic and at least as much as the Japanese. However, as they are not as strong as the Japanese they have sought help from others, but they do so reluctantly. This is certainly true of China. They admire the Chinese culture and science and history, but are suspicious of the people and their intentions. At least according to the TV dramas, but I suspect these reflect the general opinions of the people and this is part of the reason they are popular.

The strategic importance of Korea has been apparent since the late 1890's when Russia, China, and Japan were vying for power there. It seems from reading some of the papers of Willam Franklin Sands each was trying to tip the scale so that Korea would end up in their lap without all out war. They were willing to assassinate, intimidate, etc. and then use their military power.

Some others have pointed out the "you break it, you bought it concept", but there's an even bigger reason than that.

It's an incredibly great strategic point to station armies. It puts all of Northeast Asia in striking range of the Air Force, provides convenient harbors for American vessels operating in the area, and is in the midst of a very powerful allied military in South Korea. Obviously there are some redundancies between SK and Japan, but the difference is that SK isn't chasing us out. They're nowhere near as xenophobic as Japan is.

They're also an incredibly valuable economic partner, so there's a perk in protecting them from aggression. In fact, having US Muscle is a large reason that they were able to flourish economically, as they didn't have to get into an arms race with the North. It's actually a pretty damn convenient partnership for both sides as it currently stands. They get defense, the freedom to develop their economy, and a great trade partner, we get an incredible strategic position, keep some enemies in check, and get cheap foreign goods.

And good TV shows.

Oh, and Girl's Generation... My god dem legs.

[scemHeish]

As you mentioned TV shows, if you watch the historical drama, regardless of the historical accuracy, Koreans are xenophobic and at least as much as the Japanese. However, as they are not as strong as the Japanese they have sought help from others, but they do so reluctantly. This is certainly true of China. They admire the Chinese culture and science and history, but are suspicious of the people and their intentions.

That was the case pre-1950. They had to be though, because every power that they dealt with in Asia at the time was seeking it's own ends. Not to say that the UN intervention in 1950 wasn't just a proxy war, but at least it was aligned with the ROKs own goals. After the Korean War, South Koreans gained a heartfelt respect for the US and our western allies that still persists. Now they are more accepting of westerners and western culture than any other asian nation. They are by and large the most westernized eastern country. Japan is far more insular in modern times.

[catarleriarly]

That was the case pre-1950. They had to be though, because every power that they dealt with in Asia at the time was seeking it's own ends. Not to say that the UN intervention in 1950 wasn't just a proxy war, but at least it was aligned with the ROKs own goals. After the Korean War, South Koreans gained a heartfelt respect for the US and our western allies that still persists. Now they are more accepting of westerners and western culture than any other asian nation. They are by and large the most westernized eastern country. Japan is far more insular in modern times.

The Koreans are accepting of western allies and they respect western allies, but they still seem to be xenophobic (maybe even a little chauvanistic) as a people. They are very willing to work with others because they have to, but if they had a choice I believe they would not be so accepting of western people or culture, or for that matter other asian peoples and cultures.

[ljq0AYOV]

They get defense, the freedom to develop their economy, and a great trade partner, we get an incredible strategic position, keep some enemies in check, and get cheap foreign goods.

And good TV shows.

Oh, and Girl's Generation... My god dem legs.

Alot of pesky details regarding the ROK that we don't learn from traditional media, such
as we are effectively in command of their military in wartime which was just extended
again until 2015. Sorry but I didn't know this until the last couple of days of research.

The US through the UN Command has operational control ( OPCON ) with a US
general at the top and an ROK general as 2nd in command. The ROK can't retaliate
unless we approve it, although new rules of engagement are being negotiated.

That being said, it looks like the North should sanely come around with the recent
US-ROK trade pact, and the fact that China-ROK trade is double ours and China wants
more.

China still doesn't want a democracy on their border though, so the North will be
the jealous odd man out. I see what you mean with dem legs.

[scemHeish]

Alot of pesky details regarding the ROK that we don't learn from traditional media, such
as we are effectively in command of their military in wartime which was just extended
again until 2015. Sorry but I didn't know this until the last couple of days of research.

The US through the UN Command has operational control ( OPCON ) with a US
general at the top and an ROK general as 2nd in command. The ROK can't retaliate
unless we approve it, although new rules of engagement are being negotiated.

That being said, it looks like the North should sanely come around with the recent
US-ROK trade pact, and the fact that China-ROK trade is double ours and China wants
more.

China still doesn't want a democracy on their border though, so the North will be
the jealous odd man out. I see what you mean with dem legs.

I wasn't aware of the command structure. I think ROK can probably still attack NK with its forces if it so chose, but they know and we know that would be foolhardy.

Girl's Generation + my yellow fever = all the reason I need to support the defense of South Korea, lol

[ljq0AYOV]

I wasn't aware of the command structure. I think ROK can probably still attack NK with its forces if it so chose, but they know and we know that would be foolhardy.

Girl's Generation + my yellow fever = all the reason I need to support the defense of South Korea, lol

After the valuable back and forth here on Philly Speaks regarding S Korea I've had a change of heart. I now like the ROK
and dem legs alot amidst fresh information, and regret not being more informed previous. We are longtime, joined-at-the-hip
allies. The ROK supports the world in places like Iraq, unsure of Afganistan, but I know they fielded troops in Vietnam.

It's great to learn of the new and improved US-ROK trade pact, which sets a precedent for the new upcoming pact with China. Of course Japan is a big player as well for this unprecedented trade alliance that will bring back prosperity.

The only wild card with this new trade alliance is the North, and Adm Mullens was correct to lash out at the Chinese for
their intransigence. The Chinese expect to maintain their trade imbalance with the US forever. The Chinese may own us,
but they don't own anything close to a " blue water fleet ". They have not one aircraft carrier, no battleships or cruisers,
and not much experience at sea. They do have a smattering of destroyers and landing craft which would quickly
be sunk. They have a bunch of old subs too. That's why trade equality and regional peace is the best hand.

I was only to S Korea once at Puson for five days on my last port-of-call before returning to Hawaii and hon. discharge
from the USMC. We were wrapping up a six month cruise ( my second ) that took us across the Indian Ocean to Africa
and back. On my first cruise we tried to rescue the Iranian Embassy hostages. I had a nice time in Puson though way too
short like all the others except maybe for Subic Bay. We docked in Puson with the new USS Tarawa LHA-1 marine aircraft
carrier and two destroyers, subs unknown, and my ship the USS St Louis.

Thinking back I'd hope the submariners also enjoyed a port-of-call at Puson, but knowing the US 7th Fleet there was
somebody guarding our approach. Never felt more safe in my life except for the Sunday in the middle of the S Pacific
where we went swimming, with M-14 armed navy snipers on deck for sharks. What an experience. Pics of USS Tarawa:

USS Tarawa and escorts at Hong Kong:



Pic by Leon Martinez " Return from westpac, 03 " USS Tarawa

[ljq0AYOV]

Just want to give a heads up that I'm still looking for my favorite black belt I forgot in Puson. There is a reward of io,ooo baht.

[catarleriarly]

"North Korea probably figures it has little to lose — civilian casualties are a minor concern for a regime which places low value on the survival of its population — and much to gain in economic and humanitarian concessions from pushing its neighbors to the brink. After all, in the past, provocative behavior has brought the U.S. and other regional players back to the negotiating table."

- Katrin Katz, former National Security Council official

Korean Tensions Leave U.S. With 'Lousy Options' : NPR

[ljq0AYOV]

"North Korea probably figures it has little to lose — civilian casualties are a minor concern for a regime which places low value on the survival of its population — and much to gain in economic and humanitarian concessions from pushing its neighbors to the brink. After all, in the past, provocative behavior has brought the U.S. and other regional players back to the negotiating table."

- Katrin Katz, former National Security Council official

Korean Tensions Leave U.S. With 'Lousy Options' : NPR

It seems like our options are always lousy, except maybe for a quick run to the convenience war like Granada or Panama.

I still am not sure who controls the Souths military in the case of reprisals, but it appears to be the US. Did you notice
this Yeonpyeong Island is one hell of alot closer to the North, and not worth fighting over. The Northern Limit Line on the
west coast appears totally unfair to the North as it follows their coast and denies them passage into the Yellow Sea.

I'll probably try to ignore the back and forth rants and hope they don't start WW III. We do have big trade plans over
there as you know. Here's an interesting related link from VOA:

VOA | Audit Critical of S. Korean Military's Reaction to Warship Sinking | News | English

Here's another good link about the Northern Limit Line, which was drawn in the Yellow Sea in
1953 by a US commander

VOA | Report Calls for Talks on Korean Maritime Boundary | News | English

[catarleriarly]

N. Korea has access to the Yellow Sea. The boarder is not a problem for N. Korea. Redrawing it will not end the North's belligerence towards the South.

It seems like our options are always lousy, except maybe for a quick run to the convenience war like Granada or Panama.

I still am not sure who controls the Souths military in the case of reprisals, but it appears to be the US. Did you notice
this Yeonpyeong Island is one hell of alot closer to the North, and not worth fighting over. The Northern Limit Line on the
west coast appears totally unfair to the North as it follows their coast and denies them passage into the Yellow Sea.

I'll probably try to ignore the back and forth rants and hope they don't start WW III. We do have big trade plans over
there as you know. Here's an interesting related link from VOA:

VOA | Audit Critical of S. Korean Military's Reaction to Warship Sinking | News | English

Here's another good link about the Northern Limit Line, which was drawn in the Yellow Sea in
1953 by a US commander

VOA | Report Calls for Talks on Korean Maritime Boundary | News | English

[ljq0AYOV]

N. Korea has access to the Yellow Sea. The boarder is not a problem for N. Korea. Redrawing it will not end the North's belligerence towards the South.

C'mon Colin look at the map. The days of N Koreas' isolation has to end someday, it's been a half century.