[PriernPayorse]

The Japanese just can't seem to lose their murderous ways. In all fairness having served
with the 3rd Marine Regiment I really don't like Japanese people.

Last night I read the worst story about how the Jap's are ignoring international law
and still killing endangered whales for research purposes, yet the meat ends up in
fish markets and Japan has 5000 tons of whale meat in reserve.
This is akin to the Chinese demand for endangered Lion, Hippo, and Rhino parts as
sexual stimulants. These people are truly ****ed up.

Due to global pressure some Japanese fish purveyors have ceased the whale trade. It
must be noted however that Iceland and Norway are just as bad when it comes to
killing whales and dolphins. Best thing to do is not buy anything from these countries.

These jerks are going into the Southern Ocean whale sanctuary and taking even
young whales along with other protected types.

If you buy that Jap car like my Honda, at least leave a note for the sake of defenseless
whales and dolphins that says stop being an *******.

[Sydaycymn]

You should check this out if you want to further raise your blood pressure:

The Cove

The Dolphin trainer from flipper goes undercover. Sea World is in on it.

[scemHeish]

The japanese whaling practices are in line with the requirements of the IWC, and they have also proved that whaling in the numbers they are doing it is completely sustainable. I'd rather the meat and whale products be sold and used than if they were just killing them for nothing too. But as long as the IWC says it's ok, I don't really see how you can blame them.

[rouletteroulette]

research? don't kid yourself walrus.

do they publish papers?

[whatisthebluepill]

You should check this out if you want to further raise your blood pressure:

The Cove

The Dolphin trainer from flipper goes undercover. Sea World is in on it.

This is one of the saddest documentaries I've seen in a while. I highly recommend it, too.

[scemHeish]

research? don't kid yourself walrus.

do they publish papers?

They do, in fact, the most recent being published in the peer reviewed journal "Polar Biology". Regardless, I'm more pointing to the fact that the IWC allows IWC member states to issue research licenses which allow for lethal research. Japan simply uses these license in place of actual sanctioned whaling. Whaling is generally a cultural imperative in japan (and considered such in other countries), and asking them to stop based on our cultural reasonings alone is nothing more than cultural imperialism. If we want real change to happen, the change needs to be at the IWC and international treaty level. The ICRW conventions dictate that the products gained from research processes be marketed so that resources are not wasted. The point I am making is that japan isn't ignoring international law in this, they abide by the ICRW conventions, what they ARE ignoring is international popular opinion about whaling.

Braveheart made a few statements in his original post, one stating that the whaling was illegal, and another stating that if it was just research, the whale products would not be marketed. Both of those statements are not true statements. The whaling practiced by Japan is sanctioned under the ICRW, and the sale of the products is required by the ICRW. There are, in fact, many good reasons as to why some whale research requires lethal techniques.

The true underlying issue is whether or not the ICRW resolutions are just, and if appropriate steps are being taken to limit the number of research permits issued to protect whale populations. As far as I know, all research points to the fact that the levels of whaling undertaken by the countries that are currently doing it is actually a sustainable amount that still allows for growth in the population of whales. I think it would serve people well to consider these factors before they pass summary judgment on an entire race (or even members of that race).

There is some comfort to be taken that in terms of whaling, because it is so regulated, the practice is not wasteful. The wanton killing and waste that I have heard occurs at Taiji is a completely different story, however. I will freely admit that most of my knowledge on that subject is based totally on heresay however, and would probably require some research to get a proper understanding of actual circumstances.

Don't let the eco-terror promoting shows like Whale Wars completely define your view of a practice, that's all I'm saying.

[PriernPayorse]

Braveheart made a few statements in his original post, one stating that the whaling was illegal, and another stating that if it was just research, the whale products would not be marketed. Both of those statements are not true statements.

My post was based on a Wikipedia article which I will link after a few words based on
said article.

The International Whaling Commission ( IWC ) has an inherent flaw in that any member
who abstains or votes no is exempt. Japan has always done both and has therefore
been exempt. Japan has increased their position by bankrolling new voting members
from undeveloped nations with cash handouts, free hotel stays in Tokyo, etc.

There is an international outrage such as here that the Japanese have circumvented
any attempt to curtail lethal 'research'.

By the Wiki article I'll link you can see that the Jap's are not acting in good faith and
have no regard for generations yet to come. They are giving the rest of our planet
the middle finger.

Shooting whales with grenade tipped harpoons, dragging whales backward to drown
them, using electricution to kill them will have a reaction.

Here's the Wikipedia link:Whaling in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We had " The Cove" movie but I didn't watch it, already knowing the gist.

[PriernPayorse]

They do, in fact, the most recent being published in the peer reviewed journal "Polar Biology". Regardless, I'm more pointing to the fact that the IWC allows IWC member states to issue research licenses which allow for lethal research. Japan simply uses these license in place of actual sanctioned whaling. Whaling is generally a cultural imperative in japan (and considered such in other countries), and asking them to stop based on our cultural reasonings alone is nothing more than cultural imperialism. If we want real change to happen, the change needs to be at the IWC and international treaty level. The ICRW conventions dictate that the products gained from research processes be marketed so that resources are not wasted. The point I am making is that japan isn't ignoring international law in this, they abide by the ICRW conventions, what they ARE ignoring is international popular opinion about whaling.

Braveheart made a few statements in his original post, one stating that the whaling was illegal, and another stating that if it was just research, the whale products would not be marketed. Both of those statements are not true statements. The whaling practiced by Japan is sanctioned under the ICRW, and the sale of the products is required by the ICRW. There are, in fact, many good reasons as to why some whale research requires lethal techniques.

The true underlying issue is whether or not the ICRW resolutions are just, and if appropriate steps are being taken to limit the number of research permits issued to protect whale populations. As far as I know, all research points to the fact that the levels of whaling undertaken by the countries that are currently doing it is actually a sustainable amount that still allows for growth in the population of whales. I think it would serve people well to consider these factors before they pass summary judgment on an entire race (or even members of that race).

There is some comfort to be taken that in terms of whaling, because it is so regulated, the practice is not wasteful. The wanton killing and waste that I have heard occurs at Taiji is a completely different story, however. I will freely admit that most of my knowledge on that subject is based totally on heresay however, and would probably require some research to get a proper understanding of actual circumstances.

Don't let the eco-terror promoting shows like Whale Wars completely define your view of a practice, that's all I'm saying.

The trend in Japan seems to be changing for the good in favor of living whales: " It is a debate the power brokers in the
whaling industry would lose. Young Japanese would rather watch whales than eat them. They're more interested in
protecting wildlife than destoying it"

This is good news and hopefully the Japanese government will take notice. It won't happen without pressure though.

[bxxasxxa]

I am not an expert on Japanese culture but there are a couple of things that bother me in addition to their continued whaling.

Of historical significance:
1) Pearl Harbor
2)Bataan Death March


Also, I am always hesitant to paint an entire country with such a broad brush, but the Japanese do not seem to care much about the lives of animals and I have two specific examples around this.

The first is the strory of Ferdinand. Ferdinand was a thoroughbred racehorse that won the 1986 Kentucky Derby, the 1987 Breeders Cup, and was voted the 1987 horse of the year. At the conclusion of his racing career he was retired to stud in KY. In 1994 a breeding operation in Japan (where horse racing is prevalent) acquired Ferdinand and he stood at stud in Japan for the rest of his life. By 2002 Ferdinand was getting very long in the tooth and had become very arthritic. Unable to "cover" mares (artificial insemination is not allowed in the thoroughbred racing industry) any longer due to his arthritis the Japanese sent him to slaughter. They never contacted anyone in the US about placing him on a retired thoroughbred farm where he could spend his last days in peace and tranquility.

The second example I have is about the specific breed of dog, the Akita. My folks have had Akitas since the day I was born, even have baby pictures with them (and I am days away from turning 39), so we've had akitas for a long time. Someone close to me suggested I read the book, Dog Man: An Uncommon Life on a Faraway Mountain. The Akita is considered a national treasure in Japan and following WWII there were only a couple of dozen left. The book details breeders in Japan trying rebuild the breed, but each of them wanted to be given the credit for doing it so the fvckers would poison each others dogs.

The stories about Ferdinand and the Akitas left a bad taste in my mouth.

[PriernPayorse]

Yeah I realized I was being a little too broad, but all I've ever heard was very, very bad. Inhuman even.

[scemHeish]

I am not an expert on Japanese culture but there are a couple of things that bother me in addition to their continued whaling.

Of historical significance:
1) Pearl Harbor
2)Bataan Death March


Also, I am always hesitant to paint an entire country with such a broad brush, but the Japanese do not seem to care much about the lives of animals and I have two specific examples around this.

The first is the strory of Ferdinand. Ferdinand was a thoroughbred racehorse that won the 1986 Kentucky Derby, the 1987 Breeders Cup, and was voted the 1987 horse of the year. At the conclusion of his racing career he was retired to stud in KY. In 1994 a breeding operation in Japan (where horse racing is prevalent) acquired Ferdinand and he stood at stud in Japan for the rest of his life. By 2002 Ferdinand was getting very long in the tooth and had become very arthritic. Unable to "cover" mares (artificial insemination is not allowed in the thoroughbred racing industry) any longer due to his arthritis the Japanese sent him to slaughter. They never contacted anyone in the US about placing him on a retired thoroughbred farm where he could spend his last days in peace and tranquility.

The second example I have is about the specific breed of dog, the Akita. My folks have had Akitas since the day I was born, even have baby pictures with them (and I am days away from turning 39), so we've had akitas for a long time. Someone close to me suggested I read the book, Dog Man: An Uncommon Life on a Faraway Mountain. The Akita is considered a national treasure in Japan and following WWII there were only a couple of dozen left. The book details breeders in Japan trying rebuild the breed, but each of them wanted to be given the credit for doing it so the fvckers would poison each others dogs.

The stories about Ferdinand and the Akitas left a bad taste in my mouth.

Wow, whale hunting is akin to war crimes now? That's just flat out ignorance, if not racism. You must be really pissed about the 200,000+ civilians that died when the nukes were dropped, if you're still upset at the less than 100 civilian casualties that were cause by the Pearl Harbor attack. How about the 60,000,000 american bison that were mercilessly slaughtered in the 19th century? It's idiotic to cite historical examples and then proceed to use them as a representation of a culture/race so broadly. Sounds like the racism from World War II isn't as dead as I thought it was. When you cherry pick examples like this it's easy to paint ANY race or culture in a negative light, it just makes you incredibly ignorant.

As for the thoroughbred horse that was slaughtered, I actually have a hard time even seeing what your issue is. Do you realize how many animals are slaughtered DAILY when they outlive their usefulness? This horse is somehow special because it won a race and then spent the rest of its life ****ing? Makes no goddamn sense. Livestock are property, and when they outlive their usefulness they are slaughtered and rendered. That's just life as it exists on earth.

And Braveheart, the question I have to ask is, are you actually opposed to all hunting of whales, or just hunting that is unsustainable? Iceland, Norway, Finland, Russia, indigenous North Americans, and many other countries also hunt whales, and in similar numbers, so why single out japan? Norway hunts almost as many whales as Japan a year, and has TWENTY FIVE TIMES LESS POPULATION. I can't figure out two things; why is the talk always about Japan's whaling practices, and why people find the idea of even sustainable whale hunting to be a bad one. I suspect the first part is xenophobia, and the second part is because they saw Shamoo at Sea World and thought whales were cute.

[bxxasxxa]

Wow, whale hunting is akin to war crimes now? That's just flat out ignorance, if not racism. You must be really pissed about the 200,000+ civilians that died when the nukes were dropped, if you're still upset at the less than 100 civilian casualties that were cause by the Pearl Harbor attack. How about the 60,000,000 american bison that were mercilessly slaughtered in the 19th century? It's idiotic to cite historical examples and then proceed to use them as a representation of a culture/race so broadly. Sounds like the racism from World War II isn't as dead as I thought it was. When you cherry pick examples like this it's easy to paint ANY race or culture in a negative light, it just makes you incredibly ignorant.

As for the thoroughbred horse that was slaughtered, I actually have a hard time even seeing what your issue is. Do you realize how many animals are slaughtered DAILY when they outlive their usefulness? This horse is somehow special because it won a race and then spent the rest of its life ****ing? Makes no goddamn sense. Livestock are property, and when they outlive their usefulness they are slaughtered and rendered. That's just life as it exists on earth.

And Braveheart, the question I have to ask is, are you actually opposed to all hunting of whales, or just hunting that is unsustainable? Iceland, Norway, Finland, Russia, indigenous North Americans, and many other countries also hunt whales, and in similar numbers, so why single out japan? Norway hunts almost as many whales as Japan a year, and has TWENTY FIVE TIMES LESS POPULATION. I can't figure out two things; why is the talk always about Japan's whaling practices, and why people find the idea of even sustainable whale hunting to be a bad one. I suspect the first part is xenophobia, and the second part is because they saw Shamoo at Sea World and thought whales were cute.

I never compared the whaling to war crimes, but simply stated why I don't like about Japan. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese and the civlilian casulties caused by dropping two a-bombs on them. We were in a state of war initiated by the Japanese and that act by the US ended a world wide conflict.

I think it is awful that the bison were slaughtered. what's your point?

Yes, the horse cited is special. It won the two premier races in the world and deserved better than being slaughtered when it could have lived another 5 years. It is industry standard to "pension" stallions except in Japan. Why is that?

Also, if you re-read my post I said that I am hesitant to paint a race with such a broad brush meaning that I don't think it was a prevalent throughout their entire society, but that there are a number of examples I could easily cite. Maybe I could have explained that a little better.

[scemHeish]

I never compared the whaling to war crimes, but simply stated why I don't like about Japan. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese and the civlilian casulties caused by dropping two a-bombs on them. We were in a state of war initiated by the Japanese and that act by the US ended a world wide conflict.

Right. And what I can't figure out is why, if you're ok with the a-bombs, you are not ok with the Bataan Death March. From a tactical point of view, both were sound.

I think it is awful that the bison were slaughtered. what's your point? My point is that citing a historical occurrence as a practice you condemn in a culture makes no sense, similar to the one in my case. You can be as upset with the individuals involved as you want, but when you say "I am not an expert on Japanese culture, but here's what bothers me" it seems as if you're holding up specific acts as representative of a culture. If you're going to do that, take a long hard reflection on American culture.

Yes, the horse cited is special. It won the two premier races in the world and deserved better than being slaughtered when it could have lived another 5 years. It is industry standard to "pension" stallions except in Japan. Why is that? Cultural imperialism here. Just because a practice is considered proper in one area does not mean it translates to all cultures. When a milk cow no longer produces milk in our culture, we slaughter and render it. There are about a billion people in India that think that idea is absolutely horrific. Why do we do it when there are so many more people against the practice? This is just a cultural difference. We don't think cows are sacred, and they don't think race horses are sacred, just property to do with as they see fit. You shouldn't be outraged or even view a culture negatively just because they don't follow the same anglo-normalized viewpoint that you have. As for "why" it is, it's probably the same reason that the Japanese don't bury their dead, and only cremate them. They have 130 Million people squeezed into an area less than the size of California. Pastoral land is a premium. They probably didn't want to foot the cost to ship the horse back across the pacific and chose a pragmatic approach instead.

Also, if you re-read my post I said that I am hesitant to paint a race with such a broad brush meaning that I don't think it was a prevalent throughout their entire society, but that there are a number of examples I could easily cite. Maybe I could have explained that a little better. Maybe it was a simple case of wording, but it seemed like you were saying "I'm hesitant to paint a race with broad strokes, but I'm going to anyway in this case." It's like people who say "no offense, but..." and then proceed to insult you. I'll chalk it up as a misunderstanding though, due to your clarification.

[bxxasxxa]

yes, my initial post was worded poorly, and I think you make some excellent counter points.

[PriernPayorse]

The Jap's are continuing an inhumane pattern, such as the surprise attack at Pearl, Bataan, Burma, yadayadayada..

They ordered those A-bombs as we would order a pizza.

[scemHeish]

The Jap's are continuing an inhumane pattern, such as the surprise attack at Pearl, Bataan, Burma, yadayadayada..

They ordered those A-bombs as we would order a pizza.

That's sort of a poor historical view of things. US History is just a fraught with inhumanity, our own surprise attacks, our own death marches, and our own massacres. If you can make that argument for Japan, you can make it for Britain, France, the Dutch (or any colonial power), the United States, etc. They are no more or less humane than we are, and none of their historical actions can't be balanced out by an example of our own. The difference is we won the war and write the history. By all means, the Germans did far worse in WWII than Japan did, and they didn't get the nuke. Do you know why? Because we could beat them without it. Don't deceive yourself; the only reason nukes were dropped on Japan is because the casualties we would instill in an invasion were much too high. The Japanese were too strong and fierce for the US to defeat in conventional terms without extreme amounts of attrition. Not a single thought was given to their ethics when that decisions was made.

If THAT is how you order yourself up a nuclear bomb and the wanton destruction of 200,000 lives in two instants, then what does the annihilation of the native americans, a number people think may have been greater than 10 million slain in US History, order up for the USA? Have the Japanese done some inhuman stuff? Sure as hell. Do they show any more of an inhumane pattern than any other country in this world? Hell no. Probably a lot less than most countries, and whaling has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I also am not sure why a surprise attack is such a terrible thing either. We just did two--Iraq and Afghanistan. It sucks to be on the receiving end, that's for damn sure, but inhumane? What, do you want modern war to consist of people lining up and shooting at each other again? A military tactic designed to surprise attack a military installation is war, not war crime. And it was a war that we handily won. Let's not let the past cloud our future with what has been one of our greatest allies and economic partners in Asia.

And none of that has any bearing on whaling. You still haven't told me, why single out Japan when they whale? Because of an inhumane pattern than every nation on the face of the Earth has shared?

[PriernPayorse]

Dear AW, in all fairness this thread ran it's course and I'll start a new one for Iceland and Norway regarding whales.

Japan is a great ally, but you can't help wondering if that would be true had they won the war.

I'm positive enough Japanese moles and consulate staff have already seen this thread and reported back to the motherland. I trust they will take heed, but if they're still killing whales 6 months from now it's back on the web.

My biggest disappointment with US history is the treatment of the American Indians. That does'nt give an excuse for
lethal research of whales however. As for WWII they started it and we finally finished it. The Germans also were
hardheads which resulted in the destruction of some fine cities such as Dresden.

[scemHeish]

That does'nt give an excuse for lethal research of whales however.

So I take it you're against whaling in general, even if it's sustainable?

[PriernPayorse]

I'm opposed to Japan's brand of whaling, under the guise of research. And dragging whales backward to drown them, and
electrocuting them. Some indigenous peoples, in Alaska and Japan for example, are permitted a small amount of whale and
seal harvests. I believe even Polar bears.

Would you like links and photos? One recent Japanese whaling trip included two armed escorts, four harpoon boats, and two
factory processing ships. That doesn't sound like research.

I'll see if I can post some pics and links.