[sttrqiss]

What does Philadelphia think?

French parliament approves ban on face veils | World news | The Guardian

I say its a no-brainer. We ID one another by face, you shouldn't have the option of hiding it in public. I think it sends a clear message about gender equality too. Women should not be thought of as "precious creatures" to be hidden away.

I know banks have rules about caps: are veils tolerated in banks?

[blogwado]

France is getting ripped for violating religious freedom. However, the full face veil (not just the head scarf) and the burka are Wahabi inventions (the Saudi Virtue & Vice police) that have migrated to various fundamentalist groups.

They have also banned yarmulkes and large crosses. Equal opportunity religious insulting.

Women are 2nd class citizens (or without citizenship in some cases) for fundamentalist Islamists. Yes, yes, Christians and Jews do something similar in fundamental sects; however, LEGALLY, women in western democracies are equally protected. France is moving to insure that religious sects do not deny women their citizenship rights or allow the denial of those rights to become law in France. They want the government to be the only one to do that (cf: their short-lived radical immigration law that allowed the deportation of anybody who didn't *look* French).

Britain has decided that some religious laws deserve the same respect as civil laws even if those laws deny women legal protections. They are slowly starting to prosecute honor killings and abuse of women in Muslim families.

This article is from 2004, but it demonstrates how long it took them to start looking at the patterns.

Britain examines 'honor killings' / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

They key part is the question..."how to crack down on honor killings without offending the minority culture." Excuse me? Murder of women is a cultural thing and shouldn't be prosecuted vigorously? Really?

[GfBTWMmV]

There's a significant difference between religious customs that physically hurt and maim, and those that do not. Female circumcision is the same as wearing a yarmulke? C'mon.

I disagree, vehemently, with banning veils, yarmulkes and crosses. If a woman wants to wear one, that's her choice. If she's wearing a burka, she's not going to be running very quickly away from a bank robbery and if she needs to prove her identity at a bank or something like that, she can lift the veil for a woman teller. And I don't think we can force a woman to reject the role her religion demands -- we can just provide examples of alternatives.

[Beerinkol]

What does Philadelphia think?

French parliament approves ban on face veils | World news | The Guardian

I say its a no-brainer. We ID one another by face, you shouldn't have the option of hiding it in public. I think it sends a clear message about gender equality too. Women should not be thought of as "precious creatures" to be hidden away.

I know banks have rules about caps: are veils tolerated in banks?

That was the last thing keeping me from visiting France. Now I'm good to go.

[orillaVar]

I disagree that a woman's choice to wear a burka signals any kind of gender inequality, 2nd class citizenship, or anything degrading on it's own. Many women of different religions chose to wear and behave in ways that separate them from the general secular society. If a woman is being forced to wear anything, that is the demeaning and dehumanizing factor, not the clothes themselves. Plenty of women every morning willingly and joyfully don clothing that their religion deems appropriate and/or prescribed by G-d. For some it is a full face veil, some a wrapped head covering, some a wig, and on and on. To automatically assume that because it deviates from your own morals and beliefs it is demeaning, is a pretty arrogant way of thinking.
I worked with a Muslim woman who said that it is freeing to wear her full burka in public - it removes all the issues of women being looked at as sexual objects allowing her to operate on an even plane with everyone. She could not understand how women deal with the sexual attention from males they do not know when they dress provocatively (like they do this time of year).

My personal feeling about this law. It doesn't have as much to do with being Muslim as it does making everyone in France FRENCH first and foremost in their identity... everything else is secondary and trivial after that. I love France and would move there in a heartbeat, but national pride is very important there.

[cliceperperIa]

I disagree, vehemently, with banning veils, yarmulkes and crosses. If a woman wants to wear one, that's her choice. If she's wearing a burka, she's not going to be running very quickly away from a bank robbery and if she needs to prove her identity at a bank or something like that, she can lift the veil for a woman teller.

Jewellers robbed by thief in burka (From Bury Times)

[GfBTWMmV]

Masked men ram raid Altrincham jewellers David Robinson on Regent Road (From Messenger Newspapers)

Jewellers robbed by thief in burka (From Bury Times)

[cliceperperIa]

In your robbery, the thieves smashed a store window with a sledge hammer and took off with a few watches.

In the article I cited, they cleaned out the store after using what appeared to be a burqa-clad woman to get the owner to open the door. If balaclava-clad individuals approach your business, there's no way you're opening the door. For a robber, the burqa offers both a complete face cover that isn't wildly inappropriate/suspicious street wear and a place to hide a machine gun.
.

[gariharlj]

There's a significant difference between religious customs that physically hurt and maim, and those that do not. Female circumcision is the same as wearing a yarmulke? C'mon.

I disagree, vehemently, with banning veils, yarmulkes and crosses. If a woman wants to wear one, that's her choice. If she's wearing a burka, she's not going to be running very quickly away from a bank robbery and if she needs to prove her identity at a bank or something like that, she can lift the veil for a woman teller. And I don't think we can force a woman to reject the role her religion demands -- we can just provide examples of alternatives.

there have been a number of instances where they are used. in fact, I believe the trial is on for the murderer of liszbinski (sp?)...they wore veils to hide both their identities and their weapons. it would be naive to think it doesn't happen. how much? probably small, but it certainly doesn't hinder men. strangley, here, it seems few immigrants from muslim countries wear them, it's mostly radicalized African Americans.

I worked with a Muslim woman who said that it is freeing to wear her full burka in public - it removes all the issues of women being looked at as sexual objects allowing her to operate on an even plane with everyone. She could not understand how women deal with the sexual attention from males they do not know when they dress provocatively (like they do this time of year).

sounds like a copout. maybe I'll start wearing a box around and talking about how I don't understand how people deal with people looking at them, judging them, etc. using a burka to hide from reality doesn't seem an admirable quality unless maybe you're a burn victim or something else where people stare uncomfortably. there will always be times when certain radical groups take differences beyond what people are willing to allow, or are comfortable allowing. I find the covering of face to be a despicable act that should be discouraged...OTOH, people are free to be morons in most other ways.

[Narus63]

I find this a lot less outrageous than the countries for which the burka is mandatory.

[cliceperperIa]

Inside the Middle East: Blog Archive - Iran promotes 'Islamic' haircuts - CNN.com Blogs

[cliceperperIa]

What if a religion said that women who didn't walk city streets naked were sinning against god? Would you disagree vehemently with laws requiring them to cover up?

[Narus63]

What if a religion said that women who didn't walk city streets naked were sinning against god? Would you disagree vehemently with laws requiring them to cover up?

Two words: Weight. Limit.



(And no, I would not make the cut)

[ibupronec]

What if a religion said that women who didn't walk city streets naked were sinning against god? Would you disagree vehemently with laws requiring them to cover up?

Actually, wearing a burka has nothing to do with religion - it is more of a tradition thing. but nowhere in the Koran does it say that a woman must cover herself completely.

[Depolit]

New immigrants to a nation need to conform to that nation's laws, not the other way around. If they don't like it, they can go back to where they came from. This goes for all emigrees to all nations everywhere. If I decided to move to China, I would make sure I spoke Chinese.

[cliceperperIa]

Actually, wearing a burka has nothing to do with religion - it is more of a tradition thing. but nowhere in the Koran does it say that a woman must cover herself completely.

This is what the Burqa wikipedia entry says:

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam).

The Quran has been translated as stating: "O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle.".

Another verse in the Quran is translated as: "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"

[gechaheritt]

What does Philadelphia think?

French parliament approves ban on face veils | World news | The Guardian

I say its a no-brainer. We ID one another by face, you shouldn't have the option of hiding it in public. I think it sends a clear message about gender equality too. Women should not be thought of as "precious creatures" to be hidden away.

I know banks have rules about caps: are veils tolerated in banks?

The bigger story is the French showing some balls.

[movlabs]

New immigrants to a nation need to conform to that nation's laws, not the other way around. If they don't like it, they can go back to where they came from. This goes for all emigrees to all nations everywhere. If I decided to move to China, I would make sure I spoke Chinese.

what does that has to do with anything?

France has Europe's largest Muslim population, estimated to be around 5m of the country's 64m people. So you're actually convinced that those 5 million muslims emigrated to France in recent months, right?

[Narus63]

So 5m of 64 m is roughly 8% of the population. To play devil's advocate, how well do you think it would go over if a relatively recent influx of western immigrants began very publicly displaying their culture on the streets of Riyadh? This book right here maybe offers some perspective of on that: A Girls’ Guide to Saudi Arabia | VF Daily | Vanity Fair

But I agree with Bulworth; the real story here is the French showing some balls

[sttrqiss]

I disagree that a woman's choice to wear a burka signals any kind of gender inequality, ....


... burka in public - it removes all the issues of women being looked at as sexual objects allowing her to operate on an even plane with everyone.

That IS gender inequality -- the idea that the only way to level the playing field is to hide every aspect of a person -- specifically to deny the natural truth that humans are sexual beings -- is perpetuating the idea that men & women are not equals.

My personal feeling about this law. It doesn't have as much to do with being Muslim as it does making everyone in France FRENCH first and foremost in their identity... everything else is secondary and trivial after that. .

To be French now means to live in a homogeneous, fraternal society, where the small differences in personal beliefs that divide us are tossed away, and all are on equal footing at all times? Doesn't sound so bad!