[Gedominew]

What Chavez is doing is constitutional. He was given this power by the elected representatives of the people of Venezuela, under the provisions of their constitution.

If he nationalizes whatever parts of the oil business aren't already owned by the state, that will be perfectly legal, too.

Chavez is a Bolivarian, his long term goal is to unite all South America into a United States of South America, which would be a democracy modeled after the USA, and a world super power, by virtue of it's wealth, population and technology.

Is that something we should fear?

Goober, he may want to unite all of south america but hardly under democracy like the USA. As far as them being a world Superpower, even China hasn't reached that stage yet, although they are close, a united SA would have a long way to go to even approach super power status. But hey deluding oneself is perfectly fine as long as you do not expect the rest of us to join you.

[AdvertisingPo]

Actually, I do not lose, Hitler enacted a law called the 'Enabling Act', which in this specific case is quite related to the Op's citing article



Obviously my emphasis.

Here is a link citing information concerning Hitler's enabling law....



This comparison in this context is completely valid.

I know, I know, I was just messing.

As I said, this law makes me very uncomfortable. While in no way do I think that Chavez is about to start murdering mass amounts of people.

That's the thing, countries like Argentina owe him big time (several billion dollars, to pay off the IMF loan), but if he starts acting like the Generals, Argentina, Chile, and friends will drop him.

[dittygari]

Yeah, I can agree with you on that.

[AdvertisingPo]

Goober, he may want to unite all of south america but hardly under democracy like the USA. As far as them being a world Superpower, even China hasn't reached that stage yet, although they are close, a united SA would have a long way to go to even approach super power status. But hey deluding oneself is perfectly fine as long as you do not expect the rest of us to join you.

They may not become a superpower, but the thing is, every little bit of clout/independence they gain reduces US global hegemony.

[OpVJokl8]

What Chavez is doing is constitutional. He was given this power by the elected representatives of the people of Venezuela, under the provisions of their constitution.

If he nationalizes whatever parts of the oil business aren't already owned by the state, that will be perfectly legal, too.

Chavez is a Bolivarian, his long term goal is to unite all South America into a United States of South America, which would be a democracy modeled after the USA, and a world super power, by virtue of it's wealth, population and technology.

Is that something we should fear?

Well, you won't fear it because he is a Marxist just like you. I'll tell you what. When his goal is achieved and the USSA is officially coronated some day, why don't you go down there and live for a spell in that glorious Communist paradise he created and let us know how wonderful it is. Of course, you won't do this because you don't have the balls to leave the U.S.A. despite how much you despise it.

[OpVJokl8]

A few articles on the news from Venezuela, which has just granted Hugo Chavez the right to basically make his word law (at least in certain sectors). He may now simply "degree" that certain laws are in effect in the fields of "national security", "public safty", "energy policy" and so forth.

This seems like a disturbing step toward authoritarianism. Admittedly, there are times when an executive needs to be able to immediately enact policy, but I think they should be few and far between and watched cautiously by a legislature ready to pounce.
This sort of wide ranging freedom to "rule by degree", combined with the fact that the legislature was just estatic about giving it to Chavez, seems to bode ill.

I pulled the thread title from the Aljazeera article (because they had the catchiest title) but there's a clip from the New York Times that i found disturbing as well.

Does Chavez not sound eerily like Chancellor Palpatine when he was granted supreme powers over the Republic, and Padme says "So, this is how freedom and liberty die, with thunderous applause."

I think Hugo is the Sith Lord...

[KLhdfskja]

They may not become a superpower, but the thing is, every little bit of clout/independence they gain reduces US global hegemony.

Wow, a United SA.

Honestly, that sounds like hell. Can you imagine being in charge of such a thing? Suddenly all those violent, drug-related disputes from every single country are your problem. All those generals who don't get along have to work for you. Poverty, language differences, trade issues, all of it on your table. Ugh.

I doubt that South America is headed toward a USA style of collaboration. Maybe something more akin to the E.U, with more soveriegnty and responsibility for each member.

[AdvertisingPo]

People are sadly a little over-paranoid of Chavez's influence. Sure, he's probably going to be running Cuba from afar after Castro kicks it, and Bolivia is pretty much in his pocket, but the other leftist leaders (Kirchner, Bachelet, Lula, Correa, and Ortega) are decidedly not.

[AdvertisingPo]

Wow, a United SA.

Honestly, that sounds like hell. Can you imagine being in charge of such a thing? Suddenly all those violent, drug-related disputes from every single country are your problem. All those generals who don't get along have to work for you. Poverty, language differences, trade issues, all of it on your table. Ugh.

I doubt that South America is headed toward a USA style of collaboration. Maybe something more akin to the E.U, with more soveriegnty and responsibility for each member.

Nooo, I would never suggest that they become something like the US!

Even in the near future, an EU type thing is not really feasible. But they are talking about eliminating Visa necessity to travel from country to country, and opening up trade WITHIN mercosur.

As for drugs, well, most of that is Colombia's problem, and they stay firmly in the pocket of the US of A for the time being.

[KLhdfskja]

Does Chavez not sound eerily like Chancellor Palpatine when he was granted supreme powers over the Republic, and Padme says "So, this is how freedom and liberty die, with thunderous applause."

I think Hugo is the Sith Lord...

Darth Chavez? It does have something of a ring to it.

We'll have to watch what happens next. "Hard to see, the future is."

[Peterli]

What bugs me is that nobody here would give a shit whatsoever if it wasn't for Chavez's anti-american rhetoric.

Personally, my level of 'caring' is about equal. Because of his demagoguery and the fact that he sits on a valuable resource, Chavez is a more public figure, and so we hear more about his actions than, say, Putin. Blaming the public for discussing Chavez solely due to his anti-American rhetoric is like blaming the public for discussing a celebrity for flashing the world on live TV. People who seek attention frequently get it.

I don't view Chavez as a particularly important figure or one that really merits the level of discussion he gets (right wingers seem to hate him with a passion, for instance), but he is out there and will be talked about. I don't view his Castro imitation with any personal worry - I just feel pity for Venezuelans.

[cepAceryTem]

Actually, I do not lose, Hitler enacted a law called the 'Enabling Act', which in this specific case is quite related to the Op's citing article



Obviously my emphasis.

Here is a link citing information concerning Hitler's enabling law....



This comparison in this context is completely valid.

"Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Instead, it applies to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations to Hitler or Nazis."

Even though the discussion was not directly addressing Hitler or the Nazi's, and one could argue the spirit of the law to say that since the comparison was not inappropriate, inordinate or hyperbolic, it could be interpreted as valid. However, while the laws have the same name and seem to produce similar powers, I don't know that I would make the stretch that Chavez, as much as I believe he is up to no good, is another Hitler.

My 2 cents is you lose Ash. Sorry.

[jinnamys]

Democracy? Ending debate on the issues and ruling by decree is "democracy at work?"

Remember, under the new laws Hugo got passed, criticizing the Dear Leader can carry prison time.

This is "democracy at work"?

Perhaps not.

Matt

Oh come on now, Matt. It's called Democracy at the point of a gun! And remember the good ol' days of the Soviet Union which promoted this type of "democracy with flair

[jinnamys]

What Chavez is doing is constitutional. He was given this power by the elected representatives of the people of Venezuela, under the provisions of their constitution.

If he nationalizes whatever parts of the oil business aren't already owned by the state, that will be perfectly legal, too.

Chavez is a Bolivarian, his long term goal is to unite all South America into a United States of South America, which would be a democracy modeled after the USA, and a world super power, by virtue of it's wealth, population and technology.

Is that something we should fear?

Goober, are you kidding me? Most South American countries like Peru, Brazil, Columbia, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Chile do not want that type of authoritarian government no where near their shores. They knew what happened to Argentina in the 1980's and to Chile in the 1990's. And China has more democratic processes in place locally than what Venezuela has currently?

Good Grief?

PS. This should not have been to any great surprise if one was watching the internal politics of Venezuela for the last 5 years. Venezuela will become another Guyana, unfortunately.

[AdvertisingPo]

Goober, are you kidding me? Most South American countries like Peru, Brazil, Columbia, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Chile do not want that type of authoritarian government no where near their shores. They knew what happened to Argentina in the 1980's and to Chile in the 1990's. And China has more democratic processes in place locally than what Venezuela has currently?

Good Grief?

PS. This should not have been to any great surprise if one was watching the internal politics of Venezuela for the last 5 years. Venezuela will become another Guyana, unfortunately.

I would take ColOmbia out of that list...

[kranfid]

Goober, are you kidding me? Most South American countries like Peru, Brazil, Columbia, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Chile do not want that type of authoritarian government no where near their shores. They knew what happened to Argentina in the 1980's and to Chile in the 1990's. And China has more democratic processes in place locally than what Venezuela has currently?

Good Grief?

PS. This should not have been to any great surprise if one was watching the internal politics of Venezuela for the last 5 years. Venezuela will become another Guyana, unfortunately.

Which part don't you understand?
The part where Chavez is doing everything according to the Venezuelan constitution, or what a Bolivarian is?

A US president could do what Chavez is doing, if his party captured a large enough share of congress AND of a super majority of states. If the congress passed an amendment to the constitution that made Bush President for Life, and enough state legislatures ratified it, it would be the law.
You are offering examples of countries where there has been a military coup.
Chavez can do this because the people elected so many of his people that he can have the constitution amended to his will. All quite constitutional.

And he is a self proclaimed Bolivarian, which means he wants a united South America. Now the individuals who control all those little countries down there are mostly satisfied with being big fish in small ponds, but a united South America would be like United Europe, and instant economic super power and that would most likely benefit the average South American, although the current leadership might suffer a setback.