[vqIo7X2U]

I'm not exactly sure what it is that you are trying to say.

Who are you calling "speculators"? Those that have purchased Greek bonds, or those who have been selling Greek bonds?



That is excellent news: The purveyors of the obvious - Moody's - have reassured us all that now that Greek is about to default, there is not much further room to downgrade their debt.

1. It has not exactly been a secret or required a masters degree in economics that the greek "model" had to crash one day. Those who have invested in throwing good money after bad money for decades and made fortunes from the obviously high interest rates and out of control spending as the country plunged further into debt have known to make a potentially risky investment. There is nothing wrong with making risky investments and reaping the profits if it turns out well. What banks and other investors have been doing though is to expect the taxpayer to pay them off for their money thrown out of the window. And their contribution to the bailout package is still comparatively mild. Reduced interest revenues will not drive anyone into bancrupty. That the prime responsibility rests with the greek leadership that ran their country worse than a kids lemonade shop. That is unquestioned but wasn´t part of the question at hand.

2. I suggest you read the source first :

Quote :

The rescue raised the chances that Greece could stabilise and reduce its debt burden, and it helped the eurozone by "containing the severe near-term contagion risk that would have followed a disorderly payment default."


The agency also noted that Ireland and Portugal, which are also being rescued by the European Union and International Monetary Fund, would benefit from reduced loan rates. But, "despite statements to the contrary, the support package sets a precedent for future restructurings."

[StizePypemype]

You guys talk as if Greece has a economy different from ours. They spend like all the world does. They are just the first to fail.

[Borzopayn]

They are rioting in the streets in Greece. Boo hoo. Although if the U.N. were to come in and tell us how to operate, you'd likely be irked if they didn't remove loopholes for the fat cats.

[Borzopayn]

Now doesn't seem to be the time to play I told you so, in my opinion. It is time to learn. Who is calling the shots for the U.S., putting us in this position where our Congress is shutting down over some default.
Don't the creditors depend on us more than we depend on them? It all seems like a big dog and pony show. I know enough not to trust these figureheads when they tell us there is a crisis.


Commodity Trading Dog

[Gozmand]

You guys talk as if Greece has a economy different from ours. They spend like all the world does. They are just the first to fail.

I'm sorry but that just completely untrue.
Europe has many different economies some of who are weak like Greece and some strong like Germany. Saying all economies are the same because they all spend is odd in the extreme.
All governments will spend some money regardless of how much you agree with the Tea Party unless you'd enjoy living in a country without a government which I get the feeling some Tea Partiers would.

[StizePypemype]

I'm sorry but that just completely untrue.
Europe has many different economies some of who are weak like Greece and some strong like Germany. Saying all economies are the same because they all spend is odd in the extreme.
All governments will spend some money regardless of how much you agree with the Tea Party unless you'd enjoy living in a country without a government which I get the feeling some Tea Partiers would.

All of Europe runs on a socialistic economy just like Greece.

[vqIo7X2U]

All of Europe runs on a socialistic economy just like Greece.

That is like saying : "The entire US is just like South Dakota (f.e.)". Congratulations for an incredibly astute comment that shows your expertise

[StizePypemype]

That is like saying : "The entire US is just like South Dakota (f.e.)". Congratulations for an incredibly astute comment that shows your expertise

It does.

[vqIo7X2U]

It does.

Keep telling yourself that, genius.

[StizePypemype]

Keep telling yourself that, genius.

What? Does truth offend you in some way?

[vqIo7X2U]

What? Does truth offend you in some way?

Yes, Germany is like Greece, Britain is like Greece and everybody is like Greece. That reveals such an astounding level of ignorance that it is basically pointless to discuss. Or maybe I should start with Luxembourg, a nation that has about 13/14 public debt and a higher standard of living than the US ?
Very simply put, Europe is a CONTINENT. The EU consists of 27 countries at very different levels of development, political and economical models and prosperity. Failing to grasp that intellectually doesn´t prove ludicrous claims right.
Maybe start with checking the standard precondition of socialism : Public ownership of ressources and tell me in which european nation that is the case ?

[CruzIzabella]

Now doesn't seem to be the time to play I told you so, in my opinion. It is time to learn. Who is calling the shots for the U.S., putting us in this position where our Congress is shutting down over some default.
Don't the creditors depend on us more than we depend on them? It all seems like a big dog and pony show. I know enough not to trust these figureheads when they tell us there is a crisis.


Commodity Trading Dog

There is that old saying... "When you owe the bank 1 Dollar you got a problem. When you owe the bank 1 million Dollar the bank has a problem."

That's basicly true... yet the bank doesn't depend on you.
The truth is, if the US defaults or introduces tarifs, the world will still be here.... the biggest market (EU) will keep trading with it's trade partners and the emerging economies will keep growing.

The Creditor Nations will discuss a new financial system without the US and if the US wants to open itself again in the future it will have to accept those rules.
Superpower status, influence and international relevance would be gone if you default / shut yourself out... with your industrial base in the dumbster it will take decades to rebuild after a hardkill.

But yeah, all those hard working & industrious Europeans, Japanese & Chinese depend so much on the US... what can we do without all your domestic service jobs?

[StizePypemype]

Yes, Germany is like Greece, Britain is like Greece and everybody is like Greece. That reveals such an astounding level of ignorance that it is basically pointless to discuss. Or maybe I should start with Luxembourg, a nation that has about 13/14 public debt and a higher standard of living than the US ?
Very simply put, Europe is a CONTINENT. The EU consists of 27 countries at very different levels of development, political and economical models and prosperity. Failing to grasp that intellectually doesn´t prove ludicrous claims right.
Maybe start with checking the standard precondition of socialism : Public ownership of ressources and tell me in which european nation that is the case ?

In the valley of the blind the seeing man is king

[Axxflcaj]

In the valley of the blind the seeing man is king

Seriously, thanatos144, is this the best you can do? Why don't you just write down exactly why you think Europe is socialist? As it is, most readers will assume you don't answer because you can't, and you don't have a clue...

[StizePypemype]

Seriously, thanatos144, is this the best you can do? Why don't you just write down exactly why you think Europe is socialist? As it is, most readers will assume you don't answer because you can't, and you don't have a clue...

They are socialist in their tax code and entitlements.....They try to redistribute the wealth. we can start with that my friend.

[Axxflcaj]

They are socialist in their tax code and entitlements.....They try to redistribute the wealth. we can start with that my friend.

That's just your point of view. Is giving a pension to former soldiers "redistributing the wealth"? Are government-funded and operated orphanages "redistributing the wealth"? Is recognizing that pooling the risk and funding will lower operating costs for healthcare "redistributing the wealth"? Are mandatory salary contributions to a national unemployment fund "redistributing the wealth"? Or are they just sensible, economical measures, that provide a net gain to society?

Having said that, there's much to be said for redistributing SOME of the wealth. For instance, there is the fact that the rich are rich thanks to society, and that it is in their interest to preserve their means of income, that is, society itself. And then there is also the fact that a society which takes care of its less fortunate elements is less likely to see the same unfortunate elements string the rich up from lamp posts...

[CruzIzabella]

They are socialist in their tax code and entitlements.....They try to redistribute the wealth. we can start with that my friend.

Democracy beats despotism... in government and in econmics. Europe got alot more democracy in the economy... unions, codetermination,...

Being against pluralism is never the road to liberty. The world is more complex than meaningless lables like calling ordoliberalism = socialism... eventhough it's a well designed and successful anti-socialism ideology adapted all over europe.

[StizePypemype]

Democracy beats despotism... in government and in econmics. Europe got alot more democracy in the economy... unions, codetermination,...

Being against pluralism is never the road to liberty. The world is more complex than meaningless lables like calling ordoliberalism = socialism... eventhough it's a well designed and successful anti-socialism ideology adapted all over europe.

I live in a republic not a democracy. Democracy always ends in less freedom.

[Gozmand]

I never did get an answer about what's so amazing about American freedom that I'm supposed to be so envious of.

[Axxflcaj]

I live in a republic not a democracy. Democracy always ends in less freedom.

AFAIK, republic and democracy are synonymous. And hey, if you can take a break from rewriting the dictionary to fit your agenda, you could, I don't know, answer my last post? Should be 3 posts above this one...