[Cuccuccaltefe]

If I was Israel or US I would try to pretend that I never was friends with Egypts regime, this is really deceiving IMO:

Live footage showed a line of men riding through the crowded square. A Reuters witness said that the pro-Mubarak riders were wielding sticks and whips.
Another Reuters witness said protesters had told her that they believed that some of the pro-Mubarak supporters behind the clashes Wednesday were plainclothes police. Mubarak supporters, protesters clash in Egypt - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

[baritkello]

Gee, to think the instrumentality of the state would be involved in supporting the state, shocking, simply shocking.

[venediene]

So we are hearing this 3rd hand? I'd wait until we get some more solid evidence than Reuters hearing it from a Reuters witness who heard it from some other protesters.

[GogaMegaPis]

Nothing would surprise me. Afterall, it was reported that a couple of jails somehow lost their criminals. NOW, wonder how that happened? Looks like tactics used by their still in office leader. He wants to hang onto that power as long as he can. Reminds me of some of our own politicians, just not to this degree-yet. Ours are much more subtle with plausible deniability being the tool used.

[plalleste]

So we are hearing this 3rd hand? I'd wait until we get some more solid evidence than Reuters hearing it from a Reuters witness who heard it from some other protesters.

It's all over the news, what are you watching?

Anderson Cooper and Richard Engell were among those targeted yesterday by so-called "pro gov't supporters" made up mostly of plain clothes cops who work for Mubarak, lest there be any real witnesses to what's happening there.

Even FOX reported this correctly.

In the even that two sides are warring, the media doesn't usually get attacked the way they were en masse yesterday.

I thought maybe Mubarak could stay and oversee the transition to a real democracy, but it's clear as day now that he must go because he's hired his own people to attack his fellow citizens in the streets.

Many protesters who challenged the plain clothes cops stole their police and id cards that were on them as proof from at least two sets of videos I've seen.

[Serereids]

It's all over the news, what are you watching?

Anderson Cooper and Richard Engell were among those targeted yesterday by so-called "pro gov't supporters" made up mostly of plain clothes cops who work for Mubarak, lest there be any real witnesses to what's happening there.

Even FOX reported this correctly.

In the even that two sides are warring, the media doesn't usually get attacked the way they were en masse yesterday.

I thought maybe Mubarak could stay and oversee the transition to a real democracy, but it's clear as day now that he must go because he's hired his own people to attack his fellow citizens in the streets.

Many protesters who challenged the plain clothes cops stole their police and id cards that were on them as proof from at least two sets of videos I've seen.

It's possible, however, that these Mubarak supporters are operating on their own, or under the hire of others besides Mubarak. After 30 years there's got to be some people who honestly like the guy.

It doesn't sound to me like guys on camels with whips are exactly the new guard and free thinkers, also some are saying they were employees of the oil companies, not exactly supporters of the liberal cause, I would think.

I would surmise they want Mubarak and the protestors to come to some sort of agreement, so they don't get tossed out in the street. It's all going to come down to what the former leaders and the new regime think is a reasonable compromise.

I still think the military and police are doing the right thing. They might step in at some point, if it seems really egregious violence is happening but right now they just have to not take sides and let the factions work it out on their own.

In any case Obama's doing the right thing, he's throwing Hosni under the bus, making sure he knows we're staying out of it entirely. If we should get involved on either side it's going to be a full scale civil war and one that will make Iraq and Afghanistan together look like a tea party. Fuck that, we may see gas prices go up a dime but that's better than a Sawbuck.

Oh, and the media will get attacked as quick as anyone if they get in the way. Even Fox reporting it "correctly" makes me suspicious. If anyone would work hand-in-glove with conservative factions it would be ol' Rupert and his boys.

[plalleste]

It's possible, however, that these Mubarak supporters are operating on their own, or under the hire of others besides Mubarak. After 30 years there's got to be some people who honestly like the guy.

It doesn't sound to me like guys on camels with whips are exactly the new guard and free thinkers, also some are saying they were employees of the oil companies, not exactly supporters of the liberal cause, I would think.

I would surmise they want Mubarak and the protestors to come to some sort of agreement, so they don't get tossed out in the street. It's all going to come down to what the former leaders and the new regime think is a reasonable compromise.

I still think the military and police are doing the right thing. They might step in at some point, if it seems really egregious violence is happening but right now they just have to not take sides and let the factions work it out on their own.

In any case Obama's doing the right thing, he's throwing Hosni under the bus, making sure he knows we're staying out of it entirely. If we should get involved on either side it's going to be a full scale civil war and one that will make Iraq and Afghanistan together look like a tea party. Fuck that, we may see gas prices go up a dime but that's better than a Sawbuck.

Oh, and the media will get attacked as quick as anyone if they get in the way. Even Fox reporting it "correctly" makes me suspicious. If anyone would work hand-in-glove with conservative factions it would be ol' Rupert and his boys.

The army is beloved by the people; the police are not. I was listening to two counter-terrorism people yesterday and they said that jihadists are sitting this thing out and are actually kind of upset that there isn't a clear role for them in Egypt, since they aren't exactly welcomed there. On Al Qaeda forums in the ME, one intelligence guy reported that they were miffed about things because the protesters are standing up for things that the jihadists don't want, since the extremists want to rule, and not give people socialism or democracy or human rights.

When the pro-Mubarak side clashed with the protesters yesterday (who had been jubilant all along) the people defended themselves, and when they did and when they apprehended these thugs, they were plucking police i.d. cards from them.

It's like Saddam sending out his Baathists to target peaceful protesters and the media in order to say that all the people involved are just hooligans. That's not the case.

Mubarak defied what this administration said not to do, which was to escalate the tensions into violence.

I'm willing to bet that the army finally steps in and stands up for the people and defends them from the pro-Mubarak people, because if his support were real, they wouldn't have just appeared brandishing weapons and going after peaceful people like that. Way too orchestrated.

And when it's a case of warring factions, the media gets left alone, but yesterday they were clearly targeted.

What was going on behind-the-scenes yesterday between the administration and Mubarak is going to come to light now, and I think we'll see our administration work to bring this guy down now. It's too bad for Mubarak, since Obama is a smoother-over kinda guy, but now he's just slapping them in the face in sheer defiance.

The next step is that the army is going to protect Tahrir square some more and the minute they pivot and start apprehending the pro-Mubarak people who are actually bringing the violence on, that'll signal the end of Mubarak.

Yesterday Mubarak's actions proved to be the last ditch effort of a guy clinging to power whose about to be escorted outta there.

[RokgroofeTeme]

The army is beloved by the people; the police are not. I was listening to two counter-terrorism people yesterday and they said that jihadists are sitting this thing out and are actually kind of upset that there isn't a clear role for them in Egypt, since they aren't exactly welcomed there. On Al Qaeda forums in the ME, one intelligence guy reported that they were miffed about things because the protesters are standing up for things that the jihadists don't want, since the extremists want to rule, and not give people socialism or democracy or human rights.

When the pro-Mubarak side clashed with the protesters yesterday (who had been jubilant all along) the people defended themselves, and when they did and when they apprehended these thugs, they were plucking police i.d. cards from them.

It's like Saddam sending out his Baathists to target peaceful protesters and the media in order to say that all the people involved are just hooligans. That's not the case.

Mubarak defied what this administration said not to do, which was to escalate the tensions into violence.

I'm willing to bet that the army finally steps in and stands up for the people and defends them from the pro-Mubarak people, because if his support were real, they wouldn't have just appeared brandishing weapons and going after peaceful people like that. Way too orchestrated.

And when it's a case of warring factions, the media gets left alone, but yesterday they were clearly targeted.

What was going on behind-the-scenes yesterday between the administration and Mubarak is going to come to light now, and I think we'll see our administration work to bring this guy down now. It's too bad for Mubarak, since Obama is a smoother-over kinda guy, but now he's just slapping them in the face in sheer defiance.

The next step is that the army is going to protect Tahrir square some more and the minute they pivot and start apprehending the pro-Mubarak people who are actually bringing the violence on, that'll signal the end of Mubarak.

Yesterday Mubarak's actions proved to be the last ditch effort of a guy clinging to power whose about to be escorted outta there.

What you fail to mention is that the army has essentially been running things in Egypt since the 1950´s, when officers ousted the british backed king, with all rulers, Nasser, Sadat and also Mubarak ( a former air force commander serving as vice president under Sadat who seized power after his bosses assasination) coming from its ranks. The decision if Mubarak is finally out will certainly be made by the army high command, but it is rather questionable that its the letigimate rights of the people that the Generals have in mind. The reason why the army still enjoys more trust than the police are the ordinary soldiers, the majority of them beeing conscripts that come from all over society and return to a civilian life while the majority of the police force are paid regime thugs who have more to loose. That is also why the Generals decided not to bring soldiers in a position where they would either have to shoot their friends and relatives or join the rebellion, since their loyalty might not be that unquestionable and the result might also endanger the covert army rule in the country.

[plalleste]

What you fail to mention is that the army has essentially been running things in Egypt since the 1950´s, when officers ousted the british backed king, with all rulers, Nasser, Sadat and also Mubarak ( a former air force commander serving as vice president under Sadat who seized power after his bosses assasination) coming from its ranks. The decision if Mubarak is finally out will certainly be made by the army high command, but it is rather questionable that its the letigimate rights of the people that the Generals have in mind. The reason why the army still enjoys more trust than the police are the ordinary soldiers, the majority of them beeing conscripts that come from all over society and return to a civilian life while the majority of the police force are paid regime thugs who have more to loose. That is also why the Generals decided not to bring soldiers in a position where they would either have to shoot their friends and relatives or join the rebellion, since their loyalty might not be that unquestionable and the result might also endanger the covert army rule in the country.

They're protecting their interests, of course, and I see an interim replacement coming from the army for sure, although I think it's more questionable when it comes time to free elections, although I'm still inclined to believe that the country's next leader to come from free elections will no doubt be a military guy unless they all start to coalesce around El Baradei.

[RokgroofeTeme]

They're protecting their interests, of course, and I see an interim replacement coming from the army for sure, although I think it's more questionable when it comes time to free elections, although I'm still inclined to believe that the country's next leader to come from free elections will no doubt be a military guy unless they all start to coalesce around El Baradei.

An interim replacement for Mubarak will most likely be a person with political outreach into several camps, and the natural choice would be El Baradei, who is too old to be more than an interim leader anyway. Another possibility would be Amre Mussa, chairman of the Arab League and egyptian. The supporters of Mubaraks NDP party will not magically dissappear though and the army will continue to pull the strings from behind. A lot depends now on the flexibility of Egypts new leaders to integrate the forces loyal to the old regime in a new order and hopefully not repeat the iraqi mistake, where the Baath members, regardless if criminal or not were thrown on the street, fuelling the civil war.
Egypts real challenges aren´t the Muslim brothers or political Islam ( as it is painted in the West) anyway. If at all they are a symptom of a deeper cause. It is a cocktail made up of high birth rates and a huge young generation with no perspectives in combination with an economy and education system ruined by corruption and nepotism of a comparatively small brutally ruling elite that has been tolerated and backed in contradiction to western ideals for too long. That and only that has brought down Ben Ali, Mubarak, and will probably bring down more regimes.
And economic and social reforms will be the challenge for any future egyptian governement. Otherwise they risk to be thrown out as well.

[vSzsgifP]

YouTube - ‪Egyptian protesters got ran over by the system thugs‬‏

[baritkello]

YouTube - ‪Egyptian protesters got ran over by the system thugs‬‏

It's wrong ,but people walking in a traffic artery can get hit by cars.

It's not like people are able to call the police to complain: "I was out protesting and someone hit me with their vehicle while I was walking in the middle of the road."

Anarchy isn't pretty and revolution can have a price paid for in blood.

[gydrorway]

It's wrong ,but people walking in a traffic artery can get hit by cars.

It's not like people are able to call the police to complain: "I was out protesting and someone hit me with their vehicle while I was walking in the middle of the road."

Anarchy isn't pretty and revolution can have a price paid for in blood.

That was a police van that hit the people you brainiac....

Normal cars slowed down and passed without troubles.

[baritkello]

That was a police van that hit the people you brainiac....

Normal cars slowed down and passed without troubles.

You imagine I didn't notice? Thanks for showing your character.

[Bounce]

YouTube - ‪Egyptian protesters got ran over by the system thugs‬‏

I've seen similar on Al Jazeera and BBC. If you are in Egypt right now, and have good net access, please give us all some views of a citizen of Egypt.

[baritkello]

I've seen similar on Al Jazeera and BBC. If you are in Egypt right now, and have good net access, please give us all some views of a citizen of Egypt.

Most certainly every drop of information is essential and even more so when the government is shutting down communications for security reasons. Which oddly enough is almost always the security of the state and not for the citizens.

[en-druzhba]

In any case Obama's doing the right thing, he's throwing Hosni under the bus, making sure he knows we're staying out of it entirely.

I have a problem with this statement, not in what you say, but that you are accurately reflecting what Obama is saying. He cannot make sure Mubarak knows we are "staying out of it entirely" while at the same time calling for a "transition" to happen "now!" Doublespeak.

If America is to stay out of Egypt's current affairs entirely, Obama cannot side with either faction and he must let happen what happens. We either get on one side and stay there or shut up.

Every word out of Obama's mouth on this issue resounds in Egypt, one way or another. He should go play golf somewhere.

[Cuccuccaltefe]

I don't know if this White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs is totaly stupid, misspoke or if that is how he really feels, but to me his statement below seems to suggest that if the violence is coming from non government volunteers then it is perfectly fine to throw rocks down on demonstrators:

"If any of the violence is instigated by the government, it should stop immediately," said White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs. Egypt army moves to stop assault on protesters - Yahoo! News

[GogaMegaPis]

It's wrong ,but people walking in a traffic artery can get hit by cars.

It's not like people are able to call the police to complain: "I was out protesting and someone hit me with their vehicle while I was walking in the middle of the road."

Anarchy isn't pretty and revolution can have a price paid for in blood.

You cannot defend what I just saw happen. And that is what you did. WTF?

[venediene]

You cannot defend what I just saw happen. And that is what you did. WTF?

He didn't defend it at all, he just showed no sympathy. I don't really have any either. The Egyptians want a revolution? Well, they're starting to get one. Time to see how bad they really want it.