[costamarianavia]

Most people pretty much think that phenotypically, Haiti is no different from Africa in that the people are pretty much pure black African with an extremely tiny Mixed and White elite, but is this really true? Footage and photos of Haiti (usually Port-Au-Prince) often show them to be pretty much entirely 100% SSA, but this seems pretty similar to how the DR is portrayed in the media, as being a country where almost everyone looks like a regular brown-skinned African American, even though there's MUCH more variety in the DR than that (though most dominicans are in fact dark mulattos, but not homogeneously). Could this be the same case in Haiti? Especially since most people wouldn't even want to visit due to it's reputation.

I've personally met/seen some haitians who are what I would describe as "dark skinned mulatto" (for the second photo, the guy to the left):
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4WLuYjQfvW8/0.jpg
http://www.haitianmusicindustry.com/...rees-miami.jpg

Do a large chunk of people in haiti look like this, among the common people? And are there regions that can claim a somewhat mixed-race or creole heritage?

[ftpsoft]

I dont know man. Haiti has monster trucks of niggers. The white elite lived in haiti i think it was french pepole but the niggers raped them and stuff and took over their buildings. After that the the white elite came back and taught the niggers how to build and learn white english language. The niggers went crazy. Then the white elite went back the niggers and went crazy again. It just kept going like that.

[intifatry]

I dont know man. Haiti has monster trucks of niggers. The white elite lived in haiti i think it was french pepole but the niggers raped them and stuff and took over their buildings. After that the the white elite came back and taught the niggers how to build and learn white english language. The niggers went crazy. Then the white elite went back the niggers and went crazy again. It just kept going like that.

Eloquently put.

Most of the Haitians I know are fully SSA in terms of appearance, but I do know one girl who is light-skinned by Afram standard and more on the Europoid side, over half I would say. Her sister has green eyes.

[galaktiusman]

Eloquently put.

Most of the Haitians I know are fully SSA in terms of appearance, but I do know one girl who is light-skinned by Afram standard and more on the Europoid side, over half I would say. Her sister has green eyes.

Most Haitians I've met defenitely are SSA, but a alot of the ones I've met have also been dark skinned mixed types, who could pass for AA's or dark dominicans. I've never met a Haitian of predominantly european descent though, those are much rarer

[outfinofulpv]

I've been seeing Haitians since I was a little kid in DR and all of them looked pure SSA I even thought light skin Haitians were a myth until two years ago when I met this very light skin Haitian girl who was attending collage in Santiago, most people had a hard time believing she was Haitian.

[Fsfkkkjz]

The West Indies represent an amalgamation of African, European and in some cases, East Asian sources, but the contributions from each ethnic group remain relatively unexplored from a genetic perspective. In the present study, we report, for the first time, allelic frequency data across the complete set of 15 autosomal STR loci for general collections from Haiti and Jamaica, which were subsequently used to examine the genetic diversity present in each island population. Our results indicate that although both Haiti and Jamaica display genetic affinities with the continental African collections, a stronger African signal is detected in Haiti than in Jamaica. Although only minimal contributions from non-African sources were observed in Haiti, Jamaica displays genetic input from both European and East Asian sources, an admixture profile similar to other New World collections of African descent analyzed in this report. The divergent genetic signatures present in these populations allude to the different migratory events of Africans, Europeans, and East Asians into the New World. Am J Phys Anthropol 2010. (c) 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

a stronger African signal is detected in Haiti than in Jamaica. Although only minimal contributions from non-African sources were observed in Haiti, Jamaica displays genetic input from both European and East Asian sources, an admixture profile similar to other New World collections of African descent analyzed in this report.
Average admixture proportions for Haiti are estimated to be: 95.5% African; 0.3% East Asian; 4.3% European. For Jamaica: 78.3%; 5.7%; 16.0%. I'm not sure which study that is from, but windie entered this in the African descents in the Americas thread. I think she forgot to include the link to the study, but it's consistent with what you'd think, at least based on pics.

Also consistent with 23andme's advanced similarity plots; not statistically a great indication, but my only Haitian sharer is the closest to the African cluster out of all of my non- directly West African sharers.

I've only met two (known) Haitians irl however, one of which was yellow-skinned and perhaps somewhat Europoid features but clearly on the "African side" (probably roughly like my own admixture/ancestral components), and the other which could very well be straight from West Africa.

[Azzi_Kahlila]

The Jamaican data I've seen had them at like 88% African, but windie may have more recent data. I didn't think they had as much admix as Aframs.

[Ggskbpbz]

The Jamaican data I've seen had them at like 88% African, but windie may have more recent data. I didn't think they had as much admix as Aframs.

My guess is that they're in the same range, though other studies show Aframs have higher European admixture. I've seen one study that listed the reverse, though:

Admixture and Population Stratification in African Caribbean Populations

ABSTRACT
Throughout biomedical research, there is growing interest in the use of ancestry informative markers (AIMs) to deconstruct racial categories into useful variables. Studies on recently admixed populations have shown significant population substructure due to differences in individual ancestry; however, few studies have examined Caribbean populations. Here we used a panel of 28 AIMs to examine the genetic ancestry of 298 individuals of African descent from the Caribbean islands of Jamaica, St. Thomas and Barbados. Differences in global admixture were observed, with Barbados having the highest level of West African ancestry (89.6%� 2.0) and the lowest levels of European (10.2%� 2.2) and Native American ancestry (0.2%� 2.0), while Jamaica possessed the highest levels of European (12.4%� 3.5) and Native American ancestry (3.2%� 3.1). St. Thomas, USVI had ancestry levels quite similar to African Americans in continental U.S. (86.8%� 2.2 West African, 10.6%� 2.3 European, and 2.6%� 2.1 Native American). Significant substructure was observed in the islands of Jamaica and St. Thomas but not Barbados (K=1), indicating that differences in population substructure exist across these three Caribbean islands. These differences likely stem from diverse colonial and historical experiences, and subsequent evolutionary processes. Most importantly, these differences may have significant ramifications for case-control studies of complex disease in Caribbean populations. Maybe this result is different because of their choice to use only 28 AIMs?

[Esmeralfaf]

They look Black as fuck to me. Though I wouldn't know how much recessive European or Amerindian genes they carry.

[LeslieMoran]

Reggie Fils-Aime is Haitian, I think.

[Keyblctt]

In my opinion, there are a great deal of haitians that aren't "pure" black - even the ones that look str8 outta Ghana tend to sometimes have somewhat of a considerable (no more than 1/3 non-african for the "fresh outta ghana lookin ones" however) amount of nonafrican admixture (if you consider 1/4 non-african to be a "considerable amount"). I tend to think Haitians are somewhat underlooked, in terms of non-african admixture. I think around 60 percent of haitians are pure black, around 30 percent are "inbetweens" of a 50-50 mulatto and a pure african, 10 percent are true mulattoes/whites/or anything non-african.

[mitiaycatq]

There are some Polish Haitians & Polish mixed haitians.

below is a Haitian mixed with some Polish

a-polish-haitian.jpg


When after French Revolution changes started to appear in St Domingue, ( former name of Haiti, at that time French colony ) , in 1792, Léger-Félicité Sonthonax was sent to the colony by the French Legislative Assembly as part of the Revolutionary Commission. His main goal was to maintain French control of Saint-Domingue, stabilize the colony, and enforce the social equality recently granted to free people of color by the National Convention of France.
On August 29, 1793, Sonthonax took the radical step of proclaiming the freedom of the slaves in the north province (with severe limits on their freedom). In September and October, emancipation was extended throughout the colony. On February 4, 1794 the French National Convention ratified this act, applying it to all French colonies.

However, not only white plantators but also mixed mulattoes and free men of colour, that were to build future elites of independednt state, were opposed to abolition of slavery and fought the French force. Finally, slaves under Toussaint Ouvertoure managed to take control of the whole Hispaniola island and slavery was abolished in 1801.
In the meantime continental France was taken over by Napoleon, and in 1802 he sent a massive invasion force under his brother-in-law Charles Leclerc in order to take over the island and restore slavery when possible.

The contingent was around 40000 strong and included Polish Legion, army created according to the wishful thinking of Polish soldiers that by helping Napoleon in his wars, freedom will be won for Poland. The slogan of the time was "For yours and our freedom". However, when the Legionnaires realized that the campaign has very little to do with liberating and is actually about enslaving people fighting for their rights, they refused, deserted and in many cases joined the slave army.

The invading army perished anyway due to yellow fever and malaria, and at the same time war resumed between France and Britain, so Napoleon was forced to sell his overseas possessions to USA in Louisiana Purchase.

On January 1, 1804 independent Haiti was declared, remaining colonizers who didnt manage to flee were slaughtered and white people prohibited from possesing property in Haitian soil.

One exception were Polish soldiers, in gratitude for their actions during the war of independence they were allowed to stay and were spared the fate of other whites, which some of them choose , settling in places like Fond des Blanc or Cazales. For many who survived, that was the only options, as only some officers were able to pay for the passage back to Europe, and no soldiers were paid by French, since they were forced by them to leave Europe for that expedition.

During the fighting time, they were decimated by yellow fever but also often killed by blacks when captured, and when they deserted , they were on their own, equally fearing the French and the slaves.

As Margaret Odrowaz-Sypniewska ( www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/PolesinHaitiA.html ) writes :

"First of all, you must remember that Haiti was a world the Polish soldiers never imagined. Poland was not this hot. Poland did not have yellow fever and other tropical diseases. They were ill prepared for the heat and thus looked to the mountains. Most Poles were not familiar with black men. There was hatred towards whites perpetrated by the blacks, and the French feared and hated the blacks equally, in return. The Poles that could afford it bought passage back to Poland. Those that could not fled to the remote, uninhabited areas where they thought the French could not find them. At this point they weren't sure they might not be killed by the slaves. They knew their lives were not valued, at this point, by either side. To surrender meant either instant death or a punishment. Their fate was made they had to hide. Eventually they learned that they could own land because they fought with the slaves. Their world as they knew it was in total and complete upheaval."

In isolation for a long time, memory of old traditions and language started to die out, but there is still awareness of their heritage, of being different. This is portrait of Cazales, biggest of those villages, name , as locals believe , originating from popular Polish name Zalewski and creole word Kay. The home of Zalewski, the home of the Polish descendants.

[slimsex]

In my opinion, there are a great deal of haitians that aren't "pure" black - even the ones that look str8 outta Ghana tend to sometimes have somewhat of a considerable (no more than 1/3 non-african for the "fresh outta ghana lookin ones" however) amount of nonafrican admixture (if you consider 1/4 non-african to be a "considerable amount"). I tend to think Haitians are somewhat underlooked, in terms of non-african admixture. I think around 60 percent of haitians are pure black, around 30 percent are "inbetweens" of a 50-50 mulatto and a pure african, 10 percent are true mulattoes/whites/or anything non-african.

Yeah, I figured that this stereotype is caused by the fact that all people see of Haiti is the slums of port-au-prince, which is perhaps one of the entirely homogenous areas of Haiti. Although when I was watching the news when the earthquake had just happened, I saw a young haitian commoner being interviewed and he definitely looked to have caucasian ancestry, like maybe 20%. I just read in a book on Dominican history that the South of Haiti was a mulatto region, while the north was a black region during the time of the Haitian revolution and the conflicts between Blacks and Mulattos. I'm guessing the blacks of the North could've moved to the South and absorbed the mulatto population, leaving some exotic "griffe"/MGM types in that region.

The average phenotype could also vary by class. 80% of Haitians are impoverished, but there's still a 20% who are middle class (or perhaps working class), and it seems like a large chunk of them are dark mixes or even mulattos based on what i've seen.

Haiti is no DR or Puerto Rico, and the vast majority of Haitians whether "dark mulatto" or "black" would be seen as "black" to the average Western eye, but it'd still be interesting to see if some regions of Haiti have a sort of psuedo-latin american/french creole culture like say Louisiana. It can't just be a new world transplant of Africa.

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 19:51 ----------

People from Fond Des Blanc:
http://assets3.razoo.com/image/image...9.jpg-conv.jpg
http://www.southofboston.net/special...-281-450px.jpg
http://haitiprojects.org/womanarticle1.jpg
http://www.fondsdesblancs.com/topic1/bv000004.jpg
http://www.haitihealth.org/images/up...fc090d6b00.jpg
http://www.vieuxbourgeois.com/Events...NOIS_007_1.jpg

[accelieda]

Haitians to be honest I don't think 95% are pure is more like 70% pure negroid 30% multiracial of course more predominat african triracials and biracials but no haiti is not as black as they seem to advertise haiti. I've met white haitians in DR a white blonde green eye haitian little girl and another guy who was also blonde blue eye too. But those were the only whites I've met from haiti. I've met many mulatto haitians in the USA too and lighter skin haitians than me I met this triracial haitian who pretty much look like my mom yellow skin and curly hair

[KimLinbert]

the haitians i knew in real life resembled the steoreotypical african american or jamaican. i haven't seen any real mulatto looking nor light skinned haitian yet but i know they exist... also i don't think 95% are pure black... that's too much... it would be 75% pure black, 15% dark mulatto/griffe and 10% real mulattoes... whites would be less than 1% ... i don't think they have a lot of taino in them considering the fact that the majority descends from slaves brought two decades before they got independent in 1804.

[annouhMus]

Yea the french were the dumbest colonisers for bringing 500,000 slaves to a tiny island, I'm glad the haitians beat the hell out of them out of the island for being so dumb. Who does that lmao is like bringing many enemies around you in large quantities

[uncoodync]

Yea the french were the dumbest colonisers for bringing 500,000 slaves to a tiny island, I'm glad the haitians beat the hell out of them out of the island for being so dumb. Who does that lmao is like bringing many enemies around you in large quantities

Are u serious? Slaves were not "enemies", but labour force to enrich France.

Without the labor force of thousands of Africans in Haiti, France wouldnt be as rich as it used to be.

[HugoSimon]

the most admixed haitians are at least 15% or less non-black.

[Obsententicab]

I have not seen many genetical studies on Haiti, but i know one Haitian who took a DNA test, i am not sure where, but she came out as 60% African, 10% Native, 30% euro, might be Africanancestry.com or something, i am not sure i need to ask her again. I think quite a few Haitians will have native admixture, although in small amounts, and a few will have high native admixture, higher then 10%. European admixture is probably higher then native admixture in Haiti.

[TNgqZhLR]

pure black --- 80%
dark mulatto (75% african, 25% european) --- 13%
mixed/mulatto (50% european or more) --- 7%