[hictchewisa]

So what if they kill each other due to their backward customs? It means less muslims to deal with in the long run.

Not that im happy about people killing each other, but I can see the good in the bad.

[dAy2EWlg]

This is a sad case of honour killing here in Canada:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...l-wiretap.html

[slima]

It is a horrific practice that is rooted in the archaic sexism embedded in middle eastern/south asian cultures, that IMO, is slowly eroding. Yes, these horrific cases do occur but I don't think they represent a completely normal behavior in immigrant communities in the west. The fact is, nobody ever writes about the innumerable number of cases of "liberal" immigrants from stereotypically conservative cultures who don't go crazy if their daughter/son dates or brings home a person from another community, and actually embrace them, yet there are plenty of these cases too. That kind of news is just not newsworthy and I understand that. But I think it's important to point out that generally even among the more conservative types, what usually happens is that a daughter/son is ostracized at worst, not killed. Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of work to be done to rid communities of these problems, but I think its errorenous to paint all immigrants from these conservative communities with the same brush as people willing to kill their children for the sake of their twisted version of honour. There are people within these communities with more liberal and progressive ideas, who actually embrace what the west has to offer in that respect. Also, remember it wasn't so long ago when Europe wasn't anywhere near as progressive as it is now, and it took a lot of work to get to this point in terms of women's rights, and the rights of the individual. That work is on-going in the middle east and south asia, and I think it's important to support that work.

Just my 2 cents.

[enlinnyGoob]

honour killing has nothing to do with islam it is a culture thing and it happens quite a lot in the Asian and Arab communities.
the parents are usually ashamed that their daughter has gone astray and the father or the brother kills their own flesh and blood.
this is done because most asians/arabs live in a tight knit community and they dont want live in shame.

p.s Somalis dont do this

[Knongargoapex]

p.s Somalis dont do this

No, they just cut off the clitoris of their daughters

[__CVineXPharm__]

honour killing has nothing to do with islam it is a culture thing and it happens quite a lot in the Asian and Arab communities.
the parents are usually ashamed that their daughter has gone astray and the father or the brother kills their own flesh and blood.
this is done because most asians/arabs live in a tight knit community and they dont want live in shame.

p.s Somalis dont do this

I don't think it has "nothing" to do with it. It may or may not have an influence, it depends, on whether religious ideals are used to justify the actions. In that way, Islam can be used as an "amplifier" of backward cultural practices. Like FGM in Somalia, religion is not the cause, but arguably it's prevented positive changes to discourage the practice.

For example, honor killings occur in Pakistan but are they rooted in the tradition of Islam or in the paternalistic tribal culture of that area (which predates Islam)? I am an atheist so when I ask this I am not trying to defend Islam but there is no concept of “honor” in Islam such that the actions and deeds of individuals are not tied to that of the family or clan, which is at the root cause of honor killings. If anything Islam teaches that individuals are responsible for their actions alone, and does not reflect on their family or tribe. Islam may be used to qualify or re-inforce notions about what actions can be defined as bringing “dishonor” but it is NOT the underlying motivation or reason.

Arguably, Islam's fault in the matter is that it has not reformed its more chauvinistic notions which are used to justify violence against women and to abolish the practice. It has been a stop gap to change when it possibly could have reformed it. The way in which Muslims practice Islam has limited progressive ideals from taking root, because muslims are taught to believe without critical thinking and ignore rational arguments because the source of the argument is kafir.

[Sertvfdnhgjk]

No, they just cut off the clitoris of their daughters

yh and jewish people circumcise their sons, the faroese kill pilot whales etc see where i am going with this !!! every nation has his faults but honour killing goes too far

they only reason why i mentioned somalis is because someone was linking it to islam
oh btw only somali nomads practice that they simply live away from the rest of the population and dont have access to education.

anyway this thread is about honour killings

[yasmin]

they only reason why i mentioned somalis is because someone was linking it to islam
oh btw only somali nomads practice that they simply live away from the rest of the population and dont have access to education.

anyway this thread is about honour killings

Honor killing per se may not occur among Somalis (although I see evidence on the net that may refute that), the underlying roots of the practice are based in controlling the behavior (primarily sexual) of female relatives and so FGM is related. I hope that FGM is not widely practiced, but UNICEF cited a frequency of upwards of 98% of women in somalia between ages of 15 of 49 being victims of it, however it is in decline, with the frequency of "daughters – the percentage of women aged 15 to 49 with at least one mutilated/cut daughter" being at 46%.

a good write up on "honour" http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/3783

excerpt: "Honour’ .... which revolves around the control of the sexual behaviour of female relatives is widely displayed in human history, including the Roman Empire, prerevolutionary China and in many other societies and historical periods. Violence justified by ‘honour’ is not linked with any particular culture, but is based in the commodification and control of women, forming a total system of oppression which influences every aspect of an individual’s life."

[oB8LI2kP]

Honor killing per se may not occur among Somalis (although I see evidence on the net that may refute that), the underlying roots of the practice are based in controlling the behavior (primarily sexual) of female relatives and so FGM is related. I hope that FGM is not widely practiced, but UNICEF cited a frequency of upwards of 98% of women in somalia between ages of 15 of 49 being victims of it, however it is in decline, with the frequency of "daughters – the percentage of women aged 15 to 49 with at least one mutilated/cut daughter" being at 46%.

a good write up on "honour" http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/3783

excerpt: "Honour’ .... which revolves around the control of the sexual behaviour of female relatives is widely displayed in human history, including the Roman Empire, prerevolutionary China and in many other societies and historical periods. Violence justified by ‘honour’ is not linked with any particular culture, but is based in the commodification and control of women, forming a total system of oppression which influences every aspect of an individual’s life."

the reason why FGM is on the decline is because they are slowly getting more educated and are aware of the severe problems it can cause later in life.
like i said before honor killings does not happen in the somali communties. you might have read t a story or so that happened in Somalia and you should not forget that the law and order in Somalia is controlled by al-shaabaab.

[diemeareendup]

honour killing has nothing to do with islam it is a culture thing and it happens quite a lot in the Asian and Arab communities.
the parents are usually ashamed that their daughter has gone astray and the father or the brother kills their own flesh and blood.
this is done because most asians/arabs live in a tight knit community and they dont want live in shame.

p.s Somalis dont do this

Quit with the bs, Arabs are if anything much less prone to committing acts that can be described "honor killings," in comparison to Somalis. Amongst the Muslim communities, it's mainly the Kurds, Afghans, Pakistanis, and Turks that are notoriously known for committing those acts. That being said,

A Somali woman was given a new home in Konya six months ago when she fled her country in fear of falling victim to an 'honour killing' at the hands of her own family after a traumatic rape incident led to her pregnancy.

Thirty-year-old Safiye Haji Osman, now staying at the Konya Şefkat-Der Women's Shelter, told daily Hürriyet that her husband had been murdered by an armed group who burst into their house in Somalia eight months ago. Osman was raped by some of the attackers and later realized she was pregnant, however she tried to keep both facts secret, fearing that her relatives would notice and kill her. "I had witnessed such events many times there. Not to mention that this is systematically carried out in Somalia if a woman is believed to have committed adultery or some other act that can be deemed shameful (in this poor girls case, she herself having been a rape victim).

Honor killings are something that afflict the Muslim world period, they just may happen at much lower frequencies in some, than in others. All things considered, don't act like your ish don't stink.

[XiWm9O9S]

I don't know why some here want to disassociate themselves with these acts: it happens pretty much in every part of the Muslim world... I mean, even in pretty liberal countries like Lebanon:

In Lebanon, one of the most westernised countries of the region, an average of one woman per month is killed by a close male relative who says she has soiled the honour of the family by committing adultery or engaging in pre-marital sexual relations. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1328238.stm

And I'm sure that thanks to Google I could find the same for Somalia.
It's not by hiding it that you'll fight it. Quite the opposite.

[Theorsell]

Quit with the bs, Arabs are if anything much less prone to committing acts that can be described "honor killings," in comparison to Somalis. Amongst the Muslim communities, it's mainly the Kurds, Afghans, Pakistanis, and Turks that are notoriously known for committing those acts. That being said,



Not to mention that this is systematically carried out in Somalia if a woman is believed to have committed adultery or some other act that can be deemed shameful (in this poor girls case, she herself having been a rape victim).

Honor killings are something that afflict the Muslim world period, they just may happen at much lower frequencies in some, than in others. All things considered, don't act like your ish don't stink.

arabs are less prone to commit crime really? please dont make me laugh
somalis dont even practice honour killings but the arab/asian communities honor killings is practiced widely the information on the web speaks for it self. i can get tons of articles about that if i could but quite frankly i cant be bothered to do that. (see the articles OP inserted)


however it does not mean we dont have any problems in our communities our main problem in our community is FGM and yours is honour killing.

p.s the daily mail article you inserted about that girl was taken away by the al-shabaab terrorist and they decided she was going to be stoned. like i said before the law and order is controlled by al-shaabaab they decide the punishments, her father and family could not do anything and her family member was shot dead while he was trying to help the girl.

[CarrieSexy]

the reason why FGM is on the decline is because they are slowly getting more educated and are aware of the severe problems it can cause later in life.
like i said before honor killings does not happen in the somali communties. you might have read t a story or so that happened in Somalia and you should not forget that the law and order in Somalia is controlled by al-shaabaab.

Well, in personal terms, I've never heard of "honor killings" among any of the Pakistanis I've ever known, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just means that it is rare, and not a commonplace event. Regardless, I still think there is considerable pressure on Somali women with regards to their conservative culture, which may not result in the kind of honor killings we see in other cultures but has similar impacts on limiting their personal freedom.

I am familiar with Somalis, one of my best friends is a Somali woman, and generally I think her family is the same as mine. Her parents don't want to hear about her dating, but quietly accept that she may be dating, but among the more tradtional members of her community, it would be completely unacceptable. Not that they would kill her or their daughters for it but there's definitely a lot of controls and limits placed on women. However, the culture of "honor" being tied to the behavior of related women is not so intense among Somalis as it seems to be among other communities. I am not certain about that though.

[maks_holi]

arabs are less prone to commit crime really? please dont make me laugh
somalis dont even practice honour killings but the arab/asian communities honor killings is practiced widely the information on the web speaks for it self. i can get tons of articles about that if i could but quite frankly i cant be bothered to do that.

It's also because of the (quite big) demographic difference between Arabs/(south) Asians and Somalis that the numbers are not the same, but in these case it's not about numbers but about a socially implemented practice which takes human lives. Somalia, Pakistan, Jordan, ... are all concerned by the same problem, and the 'they do it more than us' is not argument; it shouldn't be done at all.

[E4qC1qQ5]

arabs are less prone to commit crime really? please dont make me laugh

Somalia is so unstable, it has no system which tabulates and records any crime. Almost nothing gets reported in Somalia. International organizations like the UN and Amnesty International occasionally speak on incidents that are described as commonplace, but generally get swept under the rug within the country. If we were to believe half the shit Somalians say that goes on inside their country, we'd be lead to believe it was amongst the safest ones in the world.

In any case, please read the below, which I previously posted,

A Somali woman was given a new home in Konya six months ago when she fled her country in fear of falling victim to an 'honour killing' at the hands of her own family after a traumatic rape incident led to her pregnancy.

Thirty-year-old Safiye Haji Osman, now staying at the Konya Şefkat-Der Women's Shelter, told daily Hürriyet that her husband had been murdered by an armed group who burst into their house in Somalia eight months ago. Osman was raped by some of the attackers and later realized she was pregnant, however she tried to keep both facts secret, fearing that her relatives would notice and kill her. "I had witnessed such events many times there. In case you didn't comprehend what was written, this woman feared for her life, because she believed her own family would kill her (from having herself witnessed other similar acts). You're an idiot if you don't believe honor killings happen in Somalia.

And I'm not Arab, my father's Berber and my mother euro.

[chipkluchi]

Well, in personal terms, I've never heard of "honor killings" among any of the Pakistanis I've ever known, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just means that it is rare, and not a commonplace event. Regardless, I still think there is considerable pressure on Somali women with regards to their conservative culture, which may not result in the kind of honor killings we see in other cultures but has similar impacts on limiting their personal freedom.

I am familiar with Somalis, one of my best friends is a Somali woman, and generally I think her family is the same as mine. Her parents don't want to hear about her dating, but quietly accept that she may be dating, but among the more tradtional members of her community, it would be completely unacceptable. Not that they would kill her or their daughters for it but there's definitely a lot of controls and limits placed on women. However, the culture of "honor" being tied to the behavior of related women is not so intense among Somalis as it seems to be among other communities. I am not certain about that though.

i agree with your completely dating is not accepted but it does happen. some members of the family are obviously more stricter then others. for example my mum knew i was dating briefly but she kinda shrugged it off and never even asked any questions or anything. my auntie (mums sister) is a lot more open and she usually wants to get to know them and invites them for dinner. while others think she must be a bad or loose parent because she invite boyfriends for dinner or something.

i said this before somalis are not that strict comparing the other muslim communities. obviously i am talking about the ones who grew up the west.

[fameintatenly]

Quit with the bs, Arabs are if anything much less prone to committing acts that can be described "honor killings," in comparison to Somalis. Amongst the Muslim communities, it's mainly the Kurds, Afghans, Pakistanis, and Turks that are notoriously known for committing those acts. That being said,



Not to mention that this is systematically carried out in Somalia if a woman is believed to have committed adultery or some other act that can be deemed shameful (in this poor girls case, she herself having been a rape victim).

Honor killings are something that afflict the Muslim world period, they just may happen at much lower frequencies in some, than in others. All things considered, don't act like your ish don't stink.

Kurdish culture, not Turkish. Does it mean no Turk ever kills his wife, sure it happens, just like in the west (crime passionel). Honor killings mentioned here is no way part of our culture, if it happenes a Turk will shoot the male involved, not the female.

[wllsqyuipknczx]

Somalia is so unstable, it has no system which tabulates and records any crime. Almost nothing gets reported in Somalia. International organizations like the UN and Amnesty International occasionally speak on incidents that are described as commonplace, but generally get swept under the rug within the country. If we were to believe half the shit Somalians say that goes on inside their country, we'd be lead to believe it was amongst the safest ones in the world.

In any case, please read the below, which I previously posted,



In case you didn't comprehend what was written, this woman feared for her life, because she believed her own family would kill her (from having herself witnessed other similar acts). You're an idiot if you don't believe honor killings happen in Somalia.

And I'm not Arab, my father's Berber and my mother euro.

what part do you not understand, do i need to spell it for you i am not talking about the ones in somalia but the ones in the west (the ones in somalia are controlled by al-shabbaab)

the honour killings in the articles happened in the west

[PypeDeft]

There is no concept of honor killings in Morocco and they are infact unislamic in my opinion honor killings happen but are rare but those rare cases are perpetrated by Iranics,Pakies,arabs and SSA muslims and less likely by Maghrebis and western/central turks

[Adiamant]

Somalia is so unstable, it has no system which tabulates and records any crime. Almost nothing gets reported in Somalia. International organizations like the UN and Amnesty International occasionally speak on incidents that are described as commonplace, but generally get swept under the rug within the country. If we were to believe half the shit Somalians say that goes on inside their country, we'd be lead to believe it was amongst the safest ones in the world.

It's easily the largest cesspool in the world. It's total anarchy; international organizations have no way of gathering data and if any data is indeed gathered, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

You know what's fucking hilarious and irritating at the same thing? Somalis here talking that they are very civil and that nothing bad is going on in Somalia...yet they are living abroad, most commonly in the west... anoniem in the Netherlands and another kid in Sweden.

I almost feel pity for these people...if my dislike wasnt stronger for them living in Europe.