[duribass]

I like how the South Africans who have moved here still wave the old flag at rugby games, were I them I'd never show any reverence to the new flag, it is a disgusting creation of the ANC and their cohorts.

If I had been alive when Apartheid were still going I would have moved to RSA, just to remove myself from the insantiy of racial politics in Europe. That is not to say Apartheid, or separate development as it was after 1957, was perfect, because of course it wasn't, no system is.

As for Die Stem being banned, oh well, as far as I'm concerned it is a creation of the Cape Dutch elites who oppressed the Boers; I'd prefer to listen to De la rey by Bok Van Blerk. What is forgotten about Apartheid is that not only did it marginalise Black tribal groups, it also marginalised White ones. They created very broad racial categories (i.e. European, Coloured, Indian and Bantu) which meant that previously separate groups, Boers/Afrikaners/English/other Whites, were lumped together and coerced through propaganda into advancing the ideals of the Afrikaner supremacist National Party.

Sorry folks, this is one of my soap box issues.

Many of the Boers (the real Boers like from Transvaal etc) still sing Die Stem and wave the old S.African flag, many benefited from Apartheid, even the English whites. If they were so oppressed by the 'Cape Dutch' then they wouldn't sing Die Stem and still keep the old South African flag.

[lopushok]

Rebels? Don't insult me like that! I'm talking about penalties mate. Take for example management of state funds. If these guys were to say spend all the money on parties, traveling etc (like they normally do), I say they should be removed by the Western powers, and should be replaced by more competent people. Said competent people should go through a screening process lasting for a minimum of a month. They should have relatively average (at least 100) IQ's, people social, hard working, and honest. They should be carefully governed by the powers that be. If they screw up then they're taken out. I don't see SSA getting any better on my watch. It has so much potential though.

See in bold above. Don't you think this would be characterized as neo-colonialism? Looks like a blatant violation of sovereignty to me. Wouldn't it require a brutal military campaign to implement? At a minimum, wouldn't it require political assassinations? Special forces, drone strikes, etc. ? Wouldn't any involved Western powers be vilified if/when these policies ultimately failed?

The entire concept seems unworkable to me. Military powers auditing the books of developing nations, giving their leaders IQ tests, toppling regimes if they fail to meet standards?

I'm leaning more strongly towards letting failing regimes fail until (hopefully) they are done failing, unless their failure is impacting their region, and then it becomes a regional problem for regional powers to solve.

Your suggestions may be well-intentioned, but are diametrically opposed to the whole "anti-colonial" paradigm. I think only a brutal military occupation and forced re-education program would have any chance of succeeding at these objectives, and would probably still fail in the end.

[wentscat]

"Hate speech" is such a controversial expression. It can be used in so many different ways. I wonder how useful it really is.

I have nothing against it. If a country is multiracial, and if in it there are, or there have been in a recent past, racial tensions, then create laws to deal with that. That's what laws are for: to impose order and stability. If in order to achieve that it's necessary to curb "individual rights", so what? Better to do that, better to prevent the demonization of other groups, than to let society break down in many mutually-hostile factions: something that breeds in violence and, in some situations, may result in civil wars.

[creewespock]

I wish this could just stop already This ANC government really thinks they all above the law, doing anything the F#%K they want,whenever. All they do is just cause trouble amongst people. Singing a stupid song like 'Shoot the Boer' (Shoot the Farmer)....Some say 'Kill the Boer' I know and Umshini Wami (Machine gun) all the time , god, then they say they aren't racist and it's just historical black songs but even the things they say and do reeks of racism.

And whenever things don't go their way they all want to riot, strike, burn tires in the roads, throw stones and get violent with police when they try to stop them.....geez great impression that is to the rest of the world hey, behaving like animals!, charming indeed.

Laksmi for President.

[SkatrySkith]

It's difficult for me to comprehend how Apartheid coerced and oppressed the Boers by lumping them with other whites.

That the ANC is oppressing whites now does not mean that Apartheid can be turned on its head.

[neirty]

From what I've read and heard DeKlerk was a pragmatist and a reluctant reformer; his history was that of a fairly hard right-winger in the NP, perhaps it was just a time and place thing, if he had been President 10 years earlier than he was would he have initiated the reform process? Plus he sought a democratic mandate to continue the reform process in 1992 (the big vote), is it not possible he was hoping the result would have come out against continuing reform?

Is the ANC as corrupt as everyone says? They seem to have a lot of support still, in the townships etc I consider their views pretty stupid but are they corrupt in the way most African rulers are (i.e. stealing from the coffers of gov't)?

His history shows otherwise. It's said that while he was young he wasn't really concerned about reform of South Africa and that he only later felt that a reform was needed. My mom told me she remembers his first speech when he became leader of the N.P, she says she can kind of remember him talking about a new democratic South Africa. I don't know, I admire him in a way, but then again you could also be right when you say maybe deep down he was hoping that by ending Apartheid the votes in the election would be in his favor. I do also admire him for what he has to say about the current ANC.

Well to me the ANC = racist scum. But they will always have a lot of support, even Nelson Mandela still voted for them In a way I understand why he does cos it was the party that he fought alongside during Apartheid.

---------- Post added 2011-09-12 at 22:30 ----------

It's difficult for me to comprehend how Apartheid coerced and oppressed the Boers by lumping them with other whites.

That the ANC is oppressing whites now does not mean that Apartheid can be turned on its head.

Like I said, real Boers benefited from Apartheid a lot, else today many wouldn't still sing Die Stem and yes I have seen it with my own eyes how some of them still sing the old anthem. So how oppressed were they really.

---------- Post added 2011-09-12 at 22:33 ----------

Laksmi for President.

LOL

[Vodonaeva]

Rebels? Don't insult me like that! I'm talking about penalties mate. Take for example management of state funds. If these guys were to say spend all the money on parties, traveling etc (like they normally do), I say they should be removed by the Western powers, and should be replaced by more competent people. Said competent people should go through a screening process lasting for a minimum of a month. They should have relatively average (at least 100) IQ's, people social, hard working, and honest. They should be carefully governed by the powers that be. If they screw up then they're taken out. I don't see SSA getting any better on my watch. It has so much potential though.

What would be the motivations of those applying those regulations - the Western powers? Foreign policy is guided mainly by national self-interest. How could one make sure that Western powers, in selecting those nations' leaders, would be taking into account the peoples' needs, and not their own? And if they really do that, if they really put their interests above those of the people, which is very likely, wouldn't the chances of popular revolt and political instability be high? Wouldn't a leader's - even a good leader's - political legitimacy be low if it is widely known that he rose to power through foreign support? And by the way, I doubt Western powers really have all the power to go about toppling leaders throughout the world. Where this has happened - Iraq, Afghanistan, for example - it doesn't seem social stability has improved. Quite the contrary.

[herrdwq]

The leader of the youth wing of South Africa's governing party has no right to sing a song that some white people find offensive, a judge said on Monday.

The judge ruled that although anthems such as Shoot the Boer had their place during apartheid, they constituted hate speech in a society now struggling to redefine race relations. It's interesting to see that South Africa's PCness kind of applies as well to Whites and boers. Judging by what I read on race forums, I thought South Africa judiciary would force people to sing "kill the boer" while shooting a young boer kid in the wild.

I'm, by principle, against this kind of ruling, of state interference in what people can and cannot sing. Still, it's interesting to see South Africa's state doing something to protect the rights of a white minority, twenty years after the end of apartheid.

And is the judiciary power of South Africa related to the Executive power? Are judges members of parties (like ANC) or independent? Who chooses them? Are they voted or chosen by test?

[Bwvapays]

^^^ In a side note, never mention you've shot boar and had boar meat for supper around South African ex pat living in Canada. They'll get Silence of the Lambs creeped out.

[pipojambo]

^^^ In a side note, never mention you've shot boar and had boar meat for supper around South African ex pat living in Canada. They'll get Silence of the Lambs creeped out.

LOL. We castrated our boar, so the meat would taste better when we slaughtered him.

[atmowasia]

It's interesting to see that South Africa's PCness kind of applies as well to Whites and boers. Judging by what I read on race forums, I thought South Africa judiciary would force people to sing "kill the boer" while shooting a young boer kid in the wild.

I'm, by principle, against this kind of ruling, of state interference in what people can and cannot sing. Still, it's interesting to see South Africa's state doing something to protect the rights of a white minority, twenty years after the end of apartheid.

And is the judiciary power of South Africa related to the Executive power? Are judges members of parties (like ANC) or independent? Who chooses them? Are they voted or chosen by test?

The reason why it was ruled that way is because according to our South African Constitution 'hate speech' is prohibited, and singing songs like "Shoot/Kill the Boer" falls under that category. There has already been Boer killings out on the farms, so by having politicians sing this song is almost like saying 'yeah shoot those boers, shoot them'....I'm sorry I have Boer (Afrikaner farmer) family and I worry for their safety a lot cos Boer killings are very real over here, it happens.

Another reason why the judge ruled this way is because ever since singing this song there has been a lot of unrest and tension between people, there's clearly been a divide now between people and that's dangerous because it could escalate to violence.

[klnbgqr]

LOL. We castrated our boar, so the meat would taste better when we slaughtered him.

OH. OUCH!

BTW in Canada it's only legal to hunt them with a bow and arrow.

Anyways, morbid sick jokes.... "boar" and "Boer" are pronounced the same here, I don't think the words are in SA - but here it opens the door to cannibalism jokes.

[prmwsinfo]

Many of the Boers (the real Boers like from Transvaal etc) still sing Die Stem and wave the old S.African flag, many benefited from Apartheid, even the English whites. If they were so oppressed by the 'Cape Dutch' then they wouldn't sing Die Stem and still keep the old South African flag.

They were oppressed, they just didn't know it. And many of them still don't; firstly the Union of South Africa was created less than a decade after they were mistreated in the concentration camps and by the same people who mistreated and imprisoned them (i.e. the British colonial politicians); secondly they were co-opted in this false vision of a macro-state by the Cape Dutch/British, did the Boers ever really want or benefit from the creation of South Africa as a state; thirdly the National Party was behind the de-ruralisation of the Boers, thereby destroying their traditional lifestyle; fourthly the National Party adopted symbols such as the ox wagon as their own, in spite of the fact the Boers trekked away from the British/Afrikaner power structure in the Cape. They also stole the Day of the Vow, did any Cape Dutchmen or Brits fight in the Battle of Blood River? No.

If a Boer is waving the old South African flag and singing Die Stem it is a sign he doesn't know his own history. The likes of Theuns Cloete and Robert Van Tonder worked hard to try to show the Boers that the National Party, and any pro-Apartheid offshoots (e.g. the Herstigte Nasionale Party or the KP), did not have their best interests at heart, apparently this work was in vain.

Apartheid was just a way of advancing the interests of the Afrikaner elite (btw I am using 'Afrikaner' and 'Cape Dutch' interchangeably here), the system of homelands benefitted the wealthy, predominantly Anglo South African or proper European, mine owners by providing a source of cheap labour in the form of disenfranchised, deliberately impoverished Blacks. In turn the diamond and gold magnates funded the NP and kept them in power, the Boers were just seen as White niggers by the likes of Verwoerd, just a bunch of Whites who could be used to shore up the power of the Apartheid state and consequently the NP.

[agildeta]

OH. OUCH!

BTW in Canada it's only legal to hunt them with a bow and arrow.

I was speaking of a domesticated pig of the male gender, but they are also referred to as a boar, until they're castrated.

Wild boar are an invasive species here in my region. They destroy wild habitats and crops. In TN and surrounding states, you can basically kill all you want with few restrictions, but you are advised not to eat them, due to some diseases they carry.

Soul Unlimited posted on another thread a while back, that they bring them in alive for a bounty in Texas.

In all of these cases, they normally use pit bulls with body armor to latch onto them and pin them down... and sometimes a different breed to sniff them out in the first place.

[Clielldub]

It's difficult for me to comprehend how Apartheid coerced and oppressed the Boers by lumping them with other whites.

It did this because the prevailing White culture under Apartheid was that of the Afrikaners, not the Boers. Every macro-state robs certain groups of their culture, this situation is not unique to South Africa.

[syptopsygieds]

Blacks can't be racist, they're not superior enough and cannot commit racist crimes.

WHITE POWER...................................RANGERS!

[Zjohkrbi]

His history shows otherwise. It's said that while he was young he wasn't really concerned about reform of South Africa and that he only later felt that a reform was needed. My mom told me she remembers his first speech when he became leader of the N.P, she says she can kind of remember him talking about a new democratic South Africa. I don't know, I admire him in a way, but then again you could also be right when you say maybe deep down he was hoping that by ending Apartheid the votes in the election would be in his favor. I do also admire him for what he has to say about the current ANC.

I think DeKlerk was seen as a right-winger because he came from a staunchly NP, and consequently staunchly pro-Apartheid, family. It could have been that he, no joke intended, was the black sheep of the family and truly did believe in the reform process. We'll probably never know.

Well to me the ANC = racist scum. But they will always have a lot of support, even Nelson Mandela still voted for them In a way I understand why he does cos it was the party that he fought alongside during Apartheid.[COLOR="Silver"]

Maybe Mandela deserves some respect for sticking to his ideals during what was, I'm sure, a Hellish 27 years in prison (although I believe he had a rather charmed life toward the end, with his own cottage on prison grounds IIRC). Other than that, I despise the man, he was a terrorist and still is a terrorist in my eyes.

[bushomeworkk]

They were oppressed, they just didn't know it. And many of them still don't; firstly the Union of South Africa was created less than a decade after they were mistreated in the concentration camps and by the same people who mistreated and imprisoned them (i.e. the British colonial politicians); secondly they were co-opted in this false vision of a macro-state by the Cape Dutch/British, did the Boers ever really want or benefit from the creation of South Africa as a state; thirdly the National Party was behind the de-ruralisation of the Boers, thereby destroying their traditional lifestyle; fourthly the National Party adopted symbols such as the ox wagon as their own, in spite of the fact the Boers trekked away from the British/Afrikaner power structure in the Cape. They also stole the Day of the Vow, did any Cape Dutchmen or Brits fight in the Battle of Blood River? No.

If a Boer is waving the old South African flag and singing Die Stem it is a sign he doesn't know his own history. The likes of Theuns Cloete and Robert Van Tonder worked hard to try to show the Boers that the National Party, and any pro-Apartheid offshoots (e.g. the Herstigte Nasionale Party or the KP), did not have their best interests at heart, apparently this work was in vain.

Apartheid was just a way of advancing the interests of the Afrikaner elite (btw I am using 'Afrikaner' and 'Cape Dutch' interchangeably here), the system of homelands benefitted the wealthy, predominantly Anglo South African or proper European, mine owners by providing a source of cheap labour in the form of disenfranchised, deliberately impoverished Blacks. In turn the diamond and gold magnates funded the NP and kept them in power, the Boers were just seen as White niggers by the likes of Verwoerd, just a bunch of Whites who could be used to shore up the power of the Apartheid state and consequently the NP.

Oh okay now I get what you mean, I didn't quite get what u meant, sorry. I think the reason why so many still sing the old anthem is cos they realize they had it better back then because anyone under the 'White' category had a much better life, that includes Coloureds that passed for White. All whites had it much better back then compared to what their lives are like right now I mean.

---------- Post added 2011-09-12 at 23:09 ----------

I think DeKlerk was seen as a right-winger because he came from a staunchly NP, and consequently staunchly pro-Apartheid, family. It could have been that he, no joke intended, was the black sheep of the family and truly did believe in the reform process. We'll probably never know.



Maybe Mandela deserves some respect for sticking to his ideals during what was, I'm sure, a Hellish 27 years in prison (although I believe he had a rather charmed life toward the end, with his own cottage on prison grounds IIRC). Other than that, I despise the man, he was a terrorist and still is a terrorist in my eyes.

LOL yeah but I do wonder if he regrets his decision to help end Apartheid, seeing the way things turned out for South Africa now. lol

I respect that he loves the ANC that much, but really the ANC is not the same as back then, so that makes me kinda upset that he still votes for them.

Terrorist?! What!??

[insoneeri]

Oh okay now I get what you mean, I didn't quite get what u meant, sorry. I think the reason why so many still sing the old anthem is cos they realize they had it better back then because anyone under the 'White' category had a much better life, that includes Coloureds that passed for White. All whites had it much better back then compared to what their lives are like right now I mean.

Whites did have it much better materially, at least from the 1950s onward (the Boers of the early days of the Union of SA were poor and badly educated), but that does not negate the effect of losing your culture. And poor Whites did exist, as late as the 1990s there were thousands of dirt poor Boer children in Pretoria who were fed by soup kitchens.

LOL yeah but I do wonder if he regrets his decision to help end Apartheid, seeing the way things turned out for South Africa now. lol

I respect that he loves the ANC that much, but really the ANC is not the same as back then, so that makes me kinda upset that he still votes for them.

Terrorist?! What!??

Mandela was adjudged to be a terrorist in a court, and I agree with that decision, he and his cronies (e.g. Oliver Tambo) organised terrorist activities (e.g. bombings) and participated in a war of sorts against the government of the day.

[Spongebob]

Section 16: Freedom of speech and expression

Everyone has the right to say what they want, including the press and other media.

Limiting this right

There are certain kinds of speech that are not protected. These are:

propaganda for war
inciting (encouraging) people to use violence
hate speech

Hate speech means spreading hatred and encouraging people to act violently or harmfully towards other people because of their race, gender, ethnic origin or religion. In other words, hate speech encourages people to discriminate against other people. http://www.paralegaladvice.org.za/docs/chap01/05.html

I think ruling against Malema is more than fair according to the constitution.

Let's see he mentions :

*Shoot, shoot = harmful, it's enticing people on to harm the Afrikaners. Some people say Kill, that's even worse.

* Boer, Boer is a South African ethnicity, the ethnicity that he sings should be shot.

Yip, great ruling judge I'm sure nobody else would like to hear songs about their race/ethnicity being shot or killed right?