[ariniaxia]

Shut up..."wanker". keep my brothers name out of your mouth.

Keep his cock from yours.

[buchmausar]

Keep his cock from yours.

Obviously you can't discuss the subject and so you prefer to be an ass instead.

[Gazeboss]

You mean most Ulster Scots are more pro British than English.

I'm not a fan of the IRA because of their Leftism but I must admit I admire the group somewhat for fighting against the odds and doing well.

Do you respect Al-Qaeda on the same grounds? Whatever went on between the IRA and the Loyalist paramilitaries was fair enough, they were effectively soldiers, but the people on both sides who killed civilians were terrorists plain and simple.

And isn't it just the Official IRA who are Marxist, the Provisional IRA are pretty much pure nationalists and it seems that they maintain links with the likes of the ANC and other terrorist groups because they have common interests not common philosophies.

---------- Post added 2011-02-28 at 20:59 ----------

"Give Ireland Back to the Irish"
-Paul McCartney

Yeah well the famine's over maybe he ought to go back home? Not to insult the Irish, I have friends who have Irish ancestry but to me what McCartney said sounds like anti-British racism and if anyone has an iota of that in them they shouldn't be living here.

[beonecenry]

Nah, the Provos are extreme left, too. Think about it, their leaders McGuinness and Gerry Adams are both democratic socialists.

[Enladalusange]

I know all about the Provos myself.

Abhor their socialist politics, but support their (until recently) "terrorist" fight against the British imperialists who occupy their territory.

If Brits don't want to die, they shouldn't be in Ireland. Americans in Arabia should heed the same warning.

Well is it okay for someone to go round burning out the people of Irish descent who live round here? If they don't want to die they shouldn't be in England? I don't think it is and that's why I'm not a terrorist unlike certain IRA members/supporters.

---------- Post added 2011-02-28 at 21:08 ----------

Nah, the Provos are extreme left, too. Think about it, their leaders McGuinness and Gerry Adams are both democratic socialists.

Is it the Provisionals who are Marxists, I was sure it was the Official IRA? Either way it's often overlooked that the IRA's politics go beyond Irish nationalism.

[roundman]

Well is it okay for someone to go round burning out the people of Irish descent who live round here? If they don't want to die they shouldn't be in England? I don't think it is and that's why I'm not a terrorist unlike certain IRA members/supporters.

Irish-Brits like, for instance, Wayne Rooney are British people of Irish descent. They're not occupying England. British soldiers and policemen in Northern Ireland are an occupying force who enforce the remnants of several centuries of illegal colonial serfdom.

Is it the Provisionals who are Marxists, I was sure it was the Official IRA? Either way it's often overlooked that the IRA's politics go beyond Irish nationalism.

Both of them are Marxist. The split wasn't over socialism, but rather whether or not they should lay down their arms and join the political process. There's the Official IRA, the Real IRA, and the Provisional IRA. They're all leftist nationalist groups who kill each-other over the means they seek to achieve unification.

Yeah well the famine's over maybe he ought to go back home? Not to insult the Irish, I have friends who have Irish ancestry but to me what McCartney said sounds like anti-British racism and if anyone has an iota of that in them they shouldn't be living here.

He is home. His paternal ancestors were Protestant settlers from Scotland.

[LSg44PDu]

Irish-Brits like, for instance, Wayne Rooney are British people of Irish descent. They're not occupying England. British soldiers and policemen in Northern Ireland are an occupying force who enforce the remnants of several centuries of illegal colonial serfdom.

Wayne Rooney, he's alright. As I said I'm not anti-Irish but I don't think people can call themselves English if they oppose an instinctively English policy such as supporting our people in NI.

Both of them are Marxist. The split wasn't over socialism, but rather whether or not they should lay down their arms and join the political process. There's the Official IRA, the Real IRA, and the Provisional IRA. They're all leftist nationalist groups who kill each-other over the means they seek to achieve unification.

Well, let 'em kill each other Same with the terrorists on the other side. Isn't Marxism's inherent internationalism at odds with their movement toward unifying Ireland? I suppose they frame it in terms of independence from 'oppression'.

He is home. His paternal ancestors were Protestant settlers from Scotland.

I just checked, he's of Irish descent.

[Siffidiolla]

Nah, the Provos are extreme left, too. Think about it, their leaders McGuinness and Gerry Adams are both democratic socialists.

So what exactly are you saying here, that they're social democrats or that they're part of the 'extreme left'? These are mutually exclusive descriptions by definition.

[Clielldub]

Well, let 'em kill each other Same with the terrorists on the other side. Isn't Marxism's inherent internationalism at odds with their movement toward unifying Ireland? I suppose they frame it in terms of independence from 'oppression'.

They're more of the Stalin type of communism in one country.

I just checked, he's of Irish descent.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-...fam3&id=I76631

Sir Paul's family tree, squire. He's not actually a McCartney but a Macintosh.

[crestosssa]

They're more of the Stalin type of communism in one country.

I see, could you recommend any books on their philosophy I'd like to learn more.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-...fam3&id=I76631

Sir Paul's family tree, squire. He's not actually a McCartney but a Macintosh.

I guess wikipedia got it wrong then. shock horror.

[seawolferr]

Do you respect Al-Qaeda on the same grounds?

Al-Qaeda targets civilians and so the answer is no. It's part of their game plan.

Whatever went on between the IRA and the Loyalist paramilitaries was fair enough, they were effectively soldiers, but the people on both sides who killed civilians were terrorists plain and simple. The IRA and the Loyalists rarley fought each other. The IRA didn't want people to perceive the conflict as a secretarian war, which is how the media made it out to be, rather than a war against occupiers and so they only went after higher up Loyalists if there was an issue with them. Despite Euro's claim, it was understood among the IRA hierarcy that dead civilians is bad publicity and so they tried to minimize civilian casualities. How did they try to do this? They would call the authorities and tell them there would be a bombing.

The Loyalist paramilitary groups would go after easy targets by killing civilians rather than fight the IRA and it's splinter groups.


And isn't it just the Official IRA who are Marxist, the Provisional IRA are pretty much pure nationalists and it seems that they maintain links with the likes of the ANC and other terrorist groups because they have common interests not common philosophies. I'm not trying to defend any group here. I'm simply pointing out the facts. No one involved in the conflict from the bottom up is a choir boy. Violent organizations draw people with violent personalities but just as some people are worse than others, some groups are worse than others. The IRA in contrast to many other groups, especially their enemies, isone of the better groups in comparison.

The IRA, and its splinter groups, has British policies in the late 60s and the government's disinterest in keeping blowhards like Paisley in check. The situation could have been dealt with mostly peacefully if a leash was kept tight.

M15, by the way, seems to do more harm than good.

MI5 'helped IRA buy bomb parts in US'
A FORMER British Army mole in the IRA has claimed that MI5 arranged a weapons-buying trip to America in which he obtained detonators, later used by terrorists to murder soldiers and police officers.

In a book to be published next month, the spy, who uses the pseudonym Kevin Fulton, describes in detail how British intelligence co-operated with the FBI to ensure his trip to New York in the 1990s went ahead without incident so that his cover would not be blown.

He claims the technology he obtained has been used in Northern Ireland and copied by terrorists in Iraq in roadside bombs that have killed British troops.

In the book, Unsung Hero, Fulton tells of his double life in which he had to play a convincing IRA man while working for the British. “You cannot pretend to be a terrorist,” said Fulton, who now lives outside Northern Ireland. “I had to be able to do the exact same thing as the IRA man next to me. Otherwise I wouldn’t be there.”

His allegations that the security services helped to obtain weapons that killed their own members follow revelations about British infiltration of terrorist groups and collusion in paramilitary killings.

The issue has been the subject of investigations by Lord Stevens, the former Metropolitan police commissioner.

Fulton’s book will include claims from his own experience that MI5 and the Special Branch of the Royal Ulster Constabulary colluded in the murder of their own officers and soldiers and allowed agents to be killed.

Fulton, a married Catholic now in his forties, was serving in the army when he was recruited by military intelligence to infiltrate the IRA. He later worked for the Force Research Unit, a covert branch of the Intelligence Corps set up to infiltrate paramilitary groups.

For 13 years Fulton was an IRA terrorist, involved first in courier runs, later as a driver and enforcer, and finally as a master bomb-maker in a unit in Newry, Co Down, credited with numerous advances in explosive technologies. “I was recruited as a serving British soldier,” he said. “I was in the Royal Irish Rangers. I agreed to go into the IRA as a soldier.”

Security sources have said Fulton was implicated in numerous bombings and shootings, allegations on which he declines to comment. He has said his handlers knew the nature of his role but ignored his warnings of forthcoming bomb attacks, including the Omagh atrocity, which killed 29 people in 1998.

Fulton and four other members of his unit in Newry pioneered the use of flash guns to detonate bombs. This technology was used in a bomb that killed Colleen McMurray, an RUC officer, in 1992. Her colleague Paul Slaine lost both his legs in the attack. He was later awarded the George Cross for his bravery.

Fulton claims he tipped off his handlers about this attack but they allowed it to go ahead to protect agents. “Two days before the attack on Slaine and McMurray I knew my officer commanding was using what we called a doodlebug, a horizontal mortar,” he said.

“I told my MI5 handlers and they took me to London for two days. The day I came back the bomb went off. The police were taken off the streets to allow the bomber to get in, set the device and get out.”

The trip to America came after the killing of McMurray, when the IRA had built sufficient trust in Fulton for commanders to send him abroad to buy remote control infrared devices that would allow IRA teams to refine the flash technique and detonate explosives from up to a mile away.

When he told his MI5 handlers about the mission, they arranged with the FBI to procure the detonators for Fulton.

In this month’s edition of Atlantic Monthly, Fulton outlines how an MI5 agent was sent ahead of him by Concorde to make preparations. He has also described the trip in interviews with The Sunday Times over the past few months.

In New York he attended a meeting with FBI agents and British intelligence officers. There he agreed to expose IRA operatives in America to the FBI. However, the same terrorists, who were arrested months later, were first allowed to procure and send the infrared technology to the IRA. Fulton claims this technology was used in the Troubles and forms the basis for insurgent bombs in Iraq.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle742783.ece

[NanoKakadze]

I see, could you recommend any books on their philosophy I'd like to learn more.

A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Moloney. Never got around to finishing it, but it was still quite informative.

Come to think of it, it's on the top shelf of me bookshelf. I should give 'er another glance.

[PaulRyansew]

Al-Qaeda targets civilians and so the answer is no. It's part of their game plan.

So have the IRA on occasion

The IRA and the Loyalists rarley fought each other. The IRA didn't want people to perceive the conflict as a secretarian war, which is how the media made it out to be, rather than a war against occupiers and so they only went after higher up Loyalists if there was an issue with them. Despite Euro's claim, it was understood among the IRA hierarcy that dead civilians is bad publicity and so they tried to minimize civilian casualities. How did they try to do this? They would call the authorities and tell them there would be a bombing.

Not always, my dad was in a pub a few hours before they blew it up- a fair few people died. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_pub_bombings

The Loyalist paramilitary groups would go after easy targets by killing civilians rather than fight the the IRA.

Quite true, and it wasn't right when they did it.

I'm not trying to defend any group here. I'm simply pointing out the facts. No one involved in the conflict from the bottom up is a choir boy. Violent organizations draw people with a violent personalities but just as some people are worse than others, some groups are worse than others. The IRA, and its splinter groups, has British policies in the late 60s and the government's disinterest in keeping blowhards like Pasley in check. The situation could have been dealt with mostly peacefully if a leash was kept tight.

Paisley seems like he was a shit stirrer, but so is/was Gerry Adams

M15, by the way, seems to do more harm than good.

Who knows, I certainly am not privy to their workings and I doubt anyone on here is. They could be foiling stuff all of the time. Doubt it though, their salaries don't attract the brightest people in the world.

[Attarderb]

So have the IRA on occasion

I would need to know the specifics. Simply saying a civilian was targeted is not enough. If someone is involved, for example, as an informer, then he's no longer a civilian. You are free to bring up a case for me too look at.



Not always, my dad was in a pub a few hours before they blew it up- a fair few people died. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_pub_bombings Yes, always. From your own link.

At 20:11[5] a man with an Irish accent telephoned the Birmingham Post newspaper and said that there was a bomb in the 25 storey Rotunda office block housing the Mulberry Bush pub. Police went to the Rotunda to investigate. The police started to check the upper floors of the building but failed to clear the crowded pub which was situated at street level. Just minutes later, at 20:17, the bomb exploded, devastating the crowded bar.[5] Paisley seems like he was a shit stirrer, but so is/was Gerry Adams You can't seriously compare the two. Paisley wanted to turn it into a sectarian war when religion wasn't the motivation for the IRA. What he did was paint all Catholic Irish as the enemy. He helped define how the Ulster Scots would perceive the conflict.


Who knows, I certainly am not privy to their workings and I doubt anyone on here is. They could be foiling stuff all of the time. Doubt it though, their salaries don't attract the brightest people in the world. Well, they wouldn't be a sceretive intelligence organization if they didn't behave secretly. It's not the first, or the last time, people will bring up their "suspected" actions.

It's already established that British agents, M15 or not, supplied weapons and information to Loyalist paramilitary groups.


I don't think bombings made much sense. I think they preferred it because it allows the people involved to feel unattached and draws alot of attention. I'd do what Collins did during the Anglo-Irish war and have an elite group of assassins to carry out missions against high ranking British military officials instead.

---------- Post added 2011-02-28 at 22:21 ----------

lol@want a cheeseburger bobby sands. A funny tag.

[sisuarmalmicy]

I would need to know the specifics. Simply saying a civilian was targetd is not enough. If someone is involved, for example, as an informer, then he's not longer a civilian. You are free to bring up a case for me too look at.


Yes, always. From your own link.

The fact that they called up doesn't change the fact that 21 people died, and I wouldn't have been born had my dad not left when he did.

Perhaps they should have bombed places when they were closed and empty if property damage was their only aim.

In the above instance the person who planted the bomb and his/her cohorts would be guilty of murder, planting a bomb in a building where it is clear to anyone that there will be lots of people is murder.

You can't seriously compare the two. Paisley wanted to turn it into a sectarian war when religion wasn't the motivation for the IRA. What he did was paint all Catholic Irish as the enemy. He helped define how the Ulster Scots would perceive the conflict.

Well, to Paisley and his ilk Irish Catholics were the enemy. I'm not saying he was an admirable person but he wasn't any worse than those spewing vitriol on the other side. Both sides had their leaders who fomented trouble and, morally, they bear some responsibility- if not legally- for the actions their followers took based on their rhetoric.

Well, they wouldn't be a sceretive intelligence organization if they didn't behave secretly. It's not the first, or the last time, people will bring up their actions.

It's already established that British agents, M15 or not, supplied information and weapons to Loyalist paramilitary groups.

Fair play to them, MI5 are tasked with protecting our 'interests' and the gov't of the day felt it was imperative that anti-British groups didn't gain an upper hand, so to that end supporting Loyalists made sense. I'm not condoning it but Loyalists aren't the worst people the British government, or most other governments, have worked with/aided.

As you say violent organisations attract violent people, whenever wherever. It seems that determined whether you were a Loyalist or a Republican was whether you were born into a Unionist or a Republican family/community. Most of the time people who plant bombs are either sadistic or delusional or psychopaths looking for a thrill or being paid very well.

The problem is that it's hard to separate fact from fiction/conjecture whenever someone writes about the actions of MI5/MI6/CIA/Mossad etc There is too much room for bullshit, if they can produce credible evidence then it becomes a different matter.

---------- Post added 2011-02-28 at 22:26 ----------

[/COLOR]lol@want a cheeseburger bobby sands. A funny tag.

Thank you.

[outdog]

That's Robert G. Sands, MP, buttmunch. Respect your parliamentarians!

[Vagtlaldo]

That's Robert G. Sands, MP, buttmunch. Respect your parliamentarians!

There's a bed made in Milltown just for you

[Keendwainge]

There's a bed made in Milltown just for you

There's a bomb made in Bangor just for you

(And no, before I get flamed, that's not a threat. It's tongue in cheek.)

[STYWOMBORGOSY]

There's a bomb made in Bangor just for you

(And no, before I get flamed, that's not a threat. It's tongue in cheek.)

No hard feelings pal.

[jokiruss]

Cheers.