[pipitous]

I was just wondering, now that I ordered my 23andme kit, and most Ethios who got tested have less than 5% Nilo/Bantu admixture. Would I as a Somali get something similar? ..Or are Somalis more Nilo/Bantu admixed than Ethios? Any data on this?

[engideNedmupe]

I was just wondering, now that I ordered my 23andme kit, and most Ethios who got tested have less than 5% Nilo/Bantu admixture. Would I as a Somali get something similar? ..Or are Somalis more Nilo/Bantu admixed than Ethios? Any data on this?

These are language families. There are no "Nilo-Saharan" genes, or "Bantu" genes. Of course, the original speakers of these language families would have had relatively similar genetic profiles, but we don't know anything about those. The "African" on 23andme shows how similar you are to the reference group for Africans (Nigerians) in comparison to the "European" and "Asian" reference groups.

If you're asking about admixture from the neighbouring Nilo-Saharan and Bantu populations, there's not a lot of data about that. You could try the Tishkoff study. But if I had to guess, I would say that southern Somalis probably have more Bantu ancestry than the rest of the Horn of Africa (not necessarily a considerable amount), while Ethiopians probably have more Nilo-Saharan ancestry.

[Enjoymmsq]

These are language families. There are no "Nilo-Saharan" genes, or "Bantu" genes. Of course, the original speakers of these language families would have had relatively similar genetic profiles, but we don't know anything about those. The "African" on 23andme shows how similar you are to the reference group for Africans (Nigerians) in comparison to the "European" and "Asian" reference groups.

If you're asking about admixture from the neighbouring Nilo-Saharan and Bantu populations, there's not a lot of data about that. You could try the Tishkoff study. But if I had to guess, I would say that southern Somalis probably have more Bantu ancestry than the rest of the Horn of Africa (not necessarily a considerable amount), while Ethiopians probably have more Nilo-Saharan ancestry.

I thought they used Bantu Kenyans as well on 23andme, non-Cushitic speaking Kenyans look like a mixture between Nilos and Bantus to me. So if part of your genome is similar to them it would appear as 'African' I assume?

In theory, you couldn't get more ''East African'' than me (I'm from the edge of the 'Horn' lol). It wouldn't make any sense for Somalis to have Nilo/Bantu admixture unless they are from the Southern regions. While Ethiopians practically live side-by-side with Nilos. So Tishkoff is the only study out there that could slightly answer this question?

[Zhgrlpil]

I thought they used Bantu Kenyans as well on 23andme, non-Cushitic speaking Kenyans look like a mixture between Nilos and Bantus to me. So if part of your genome is similar to them it would show appear as 'African' I assume?

The Bantu Kenyans are not used in the Ancestry Painting. I believe they're used for global similarities. There are Nilo-Saharan and Bantu groups in Kenya, by the way.
In theory, you couldn't get more ''East African'' than me (I'm from the edge of the 'Horn' lol). It wouldn't make any sense for Somalis to have Nilo/Bantu admixture unless they are from the Southern regions. While Ethiopians practically live side-by-side with Nilos. So Tishkoff is the only study out there that could slightly answer this question? Well, Kenyans apparently have a considerable amount of (relatively) recent West African ancestry. You could have some ancestry from Nilo-Saharan/Bantu populations without it actually being transmitted directly from those sources (e.g. from an admixed southern Somali). About Ethiopians, there are historical circumstances to take into account as well, not just the fact that some Ethiopian populations live close to Nilo-Saharans. I guess genetic tests are the only way to find out.

I don't know of a better study than the one by Tishkoff from last year, sorry. If there's a better one, I'm sure another member will help you out.

[Drugmachine]

The Bantu Kenyans are not used in the Ancestry Painting. I believe they're used for global similarities. There are Nilo-Saharan and Bantu groups in Kenya, by the way.
Well, Kenyans apparently have a considerable amount of (relatively) recent West African ancestry.

Really? What a bummer, I am expecting 0% then. Nigeria is halfway across the continent. We’ll see, the wait sucks.

You could have some ancestry from Nilo-Saharan/Bantu populations without it actually being transmitted directly from those sources (e.g. from an admixed southern Somali).

I have one great-grandmother who was born in the southern port town Kismaayo, a place notorious for the Swahili slave-trade. But she looked completely Somali. Hmm interesting.

[Anavaralo]

Really? What a bummer, I am expecting 0% than. Nigeria is halfway across the continent. We’ll see, the wait sucks.

Nah, I wouldn't expect 0%. These are only your percentages of similarity compared to the two other reference groups. So far, the Horners on 23andme have had higher "Asian" percentages than "African". Three reference groups are simply not enough to give an accurate description for all human populations. There are no known Somalis on 23andme so far, so we can't know for sure, but I would expect you to get less than 5% "African". Not that it matters, anyway. You could also try sending your raw data to Doug McDonald, his results seem to be at least a little more accurate (he uses Bantu Kenyans). Let's just be patient and wait for your results.

[phernikas]

"Ethiopian" is not an ethnicity, while "Somali" is... some Ethiopians are Somali.

1) Somalis are one of the most homogeneous people on the planet...saying something like "Southern Somalis are more Bantu" shows how little someone would know about Somali population movement. The southernmost Somali city, Kismaayo, is basically a Majerten city, so are you claiming, the Majerten, that your kin from Kismaayo, are more bantu than you, because you hail from Puntland?

2) The Nomadic Somali clans, "Dir, Isaaq, Daarood, and Hawiye" have little differentiating them. I doubt that myself, an Isaaq, or you, a Daarod, or Excel, a Hawiye, will really differ that much on the 23andme test.

3) The agricultural Somali clans, "Digil and Mirifle...aka Rahanweyne" on the other hand may be substantially mixed. Bantu admixture though will be quite minimal even with them, instead, these groups may have been historically Oromo and or Garre (a lowland east cushitic group, with close affinity to Somali) and only recently, ie within the last 4 centuries, Somalicized via the southward Somali expansion towards the Tana river.

4) The Somali expansion southwards to present day Kenya basically finished by the 18th century, had there been no European colonization of Kenya and Tanganyka, I'm certain Somalis would have reached Mount Kilimanjaro by the mid 19th century, and have completely taken over the Masai Mara area bordering Kenya/Tanzania . Contacts with Nilotic groups like the Samburu, Turkana and Masai have only occured recently, and even then, the mixing has been kept to a minimum. This is not the case for other Cushitic speakers, like the Rendille and Borana Oromo, who have also been culturally influenced by Nilotes.

5) There has been no Nilotic presence in the eastern horn...ever. It seems like the Great rift valley has been some kind of natural barrier for the two groups, Nilotic speakers and Cushitic speakers, until recent history (1600s onwards).

[art_fan_12]

1) Somalis are one of the most homogeneous people on the planet...saying something like "Southern Somalis are more Bantu" shows how little someone would know about Somali population movement.

I won't claim to be an expert on this, but what I do know is that studies have repeatedly shown that genetic variation, even within ethnicities, is clinal. In other words, it would be expected that a person from South Somalia either has an East African genetic component closer to that of certain Kenyans than other Somalis, and/or that there has been admixture (even if it's insignificant). Therefore, it would be likely that a southern Somali would generelly be more closely related to Kenyans than a person from Somaliland. Wouldn't you agree? The assimilation of other ethnicities, whether it's significant or not, is a natural consequence of large migrations.

[XYTommy]

I know Ethios are comprised of many different ethnic groups but I basically meant the largest one (Amharized Oromos and real Oromos = over 60-70% of Ethiopia).

Honestly I don't believe in the Somali clan system anyway, sounds like some made up stuff to me. There is no proof people who live nearly 1,000 miles away from Puntland are really of the same clan. There is indeed a slight difference within Somalis you can’t deny it, but for the untrained eye it is hard to detect.

About the Somali Southern expansion, I think it was more of a language shift than a total population shift. Just natives such as the Garre, Rendille etc who became Somalis. That's all what happened.

[Olphander]

Honestly I don't believe in the Somali clan system anyway, sounds like some made up stuff to me. There is no proof people who live nearly 1,000 miles away from Puntland are really of the same clan. There is indeed a slight difference within Somalis you can’t deny it, but for the untrained eye it is hard to detect.

If you believe certain parts of the abtiris is fabricated, or based on myths, it means you're logical...if you think the whole structure is 'made up stuff' it shows your ignorance regarding Somali history, which is a shame.

You being a Harti should know that during the Majerten sultanate of the 1700s-1800s, there was a migration of MJ's southwards, concluding with the founding of cities like kismaayo. Some MJ's moved to Kismaayo as recently as the 1970s...are you saying that these are going to be closer to Rendille and Samburu than to you? We're talking about your own cousins here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majeert...een_Sultanates


As for the Isaaq, there has been a steady migration to Kenya since the end of World War I...my own grandfather moved to Naivasha, Kenya as a young man in the 1930s, before joining the British Navy. These Isaaq are obviously related to the Isaaq up north in Somaliland, more so than the Hawiye/Degodia Somalis of the Northern Frontier Province of Kenya, who they have little to no affinity for.

Bottom line, it depends on the group we are discussing. Somalis are nomads par excellence, and their migrations did not stop in some antiquated era, but continued and continues to this day...the traditional North-South-East-West clines does not really work to define Somali groups. A Somali in the borders of Kenya maybe more related to another Somali in Djibouti, than someone in between, say in Mogadishu, all based on their personal historical circumstances.

[Lapsinuibense]

I know Ethios are comprised of many different ethnic groups but I basically meant the largest one (Amharized Oromos and real Oromos = over 60-70% of Ethiopia).

How about the oromoized Amharas? and the Amharized Tigrayans? how about the Tigrayanized Agews? The Oromized Agews? The Oromized Somalis? The Somalized Oromos? The Tigrayanized oromos? The Oromoized Afars? The Oromoized Argobbas? The Oromized people from Damot? The list is endless actually and it is not that simple, read Ethiopian History. The "real" Oromos now are probably just the Borana.

In any case, the 5% Nigerian that Ethiopians have on 23andme could be just noise or due to ancient common ancestry with Western Africans, who knows? If it is due to ancient common ancestry with Nigerians then expect to have the same amount of admix.

[ballingham]

The Oromized Somalis?

No such thing exists. I agree with the rest of your post though

[WaydayNef]

Aware_Dog,

Well, Ethiopians seem to be much like Somalis. Dominant ethnic groups of certain regions change the language and identity of the people living amongst them. We were just discussing this issue but what happened in Somalia.

Slick,

Somali genealogy sounds very dubious to me, especially when their claims don’t adhere to their geographical locations. Many people had changed their clans many times over, there is no telling who is who anymore. Puntland is a very sparsely populated area, especially in the 1800s when these so-called migrations took place, no way in hell nearly a quarter of the population decided to take a boat and go live 1,000 miles down south. Most of the people living there are just natives to that area.

[yasalaioqe]

How about the oromoized Amharas? and the Amharized Tigrayans? how about the Tigrayanized Agews? The Oromized Agews? The Oromized Somalis? The Somalized Oromos? The Tigrayanized oromos? The Oromoized Afars? The Oromoized Argobbas? The Oromized people from Damot? The list is endless actually and it is not that simple, read Ethiopian History. The "real" Oromos now are probably just the Borana.

I agree, while discussing intra-ethnic relations, geography seems to be more important.
In any case, the 5% Nigerian that Ethiopians have on 23andme could be just noise or due to ancient common ancestry with Western Africans, who knows? If it is due to ancient common ancestry with Nigerians then expect to have the same amount of admix. It doesn't even have to be shared ancestry, although it probably is. It's only based on if you're more similar to those Nigerians than to the reference groups for "Europeans" and "Asians". It's actually usually not even five percent for Horners so far, just up to five percent.

[Lolita Palmer]

No such thing exists. I agree with the rest of your post though

Come on Wadaad, Somalis and Oromos had hustling bustling trade route in the east especially before the Battle of Chelenqo when Menelik brought Harar bag again under the Ethiopian Empire, there was even an area/market where some were bilingual in both Somali and Oromigna, I'm not saying that there was a lot but the Historic district/region of Hararghe is a very ancient trade route it is only natural for some oromos to have mixed with Somalis and vise versa.

[Gasfghj]

Come on Wadaad, Somalis and Oromos had hustling bustling trade route in the east especially before the Battle of Chelenqo when Menelik brought Harar bag again under the Ethiopian Empire, there was even an area/market where some were bilingual in both Somali and Oromigna, I'm not saying that there was a lot but the Historic district/region of Hararghe is a very ancient trade route it is only natural for some oromos to have mixed with Somalis and vise versa.

From memory i remember there was a Gold trade route from Gondar to Mogadishu in the medieval era, do you know who manned those caravans?

[xanaxist]

From memory i remember there was a Gold trade route from Gondar to Mogadishu in the medieval era, do you know who manned those caravans?

AFAIK Most of the Ethiopian Commodities in medieval times (at least after the restoration of the Solomonic Dynasty but probably before that too) had three main arteries leading to the coast. One was from Sudan or west Gonder through Gonder/begemeder Proper (North of Lake Tana) and then through Lasta and finally heading to Massawa, the other was from the North but closer to central Ethiopia (f.e. South and west of Lasta) through Shewa and finally heading to Zeila, and the last one was from the southern Tributaries/periphery of the empire (like Hadya and Damot) through Shewa and finally again heading to Zeila. These are the ones that I can recall, now I'm not sure about want went through to Mogadishu, maybe this has something to do with the Ajuran state importing gold that goes through the Northern trade route and then redirects via shewa, but I would have guessed it would go to zeila and then to Mogadishu, instead of directly going to Mogadishu, in return the state would export gums and resins? I haven't read much about the Ajuran, but this is a possibility I guess, maybe you probably know more about it?

[bpejjssoe]

The Somali expansion southwards to present day Kenya basically finished by the 18th century, had there been no European colonization of Kenya and Tanganyka, I'm certain Somalis would have reached Mount Kilimanjaro by the mid 19th century, and have completely taken over the Masai Mara area bordering Kenya/Tanzania.

Fascinating to think what might have happened if colonial europeans hadn't intervened. Maybe somalis would have pushed further south all the way to south africa only to be stopped by the zulus

I'm a bit surprised though that this expansion took place relatively late, only during modern age. (maybe some biological reason for this like tsetse??)

Is there any possibility of previous southward cushitic (not necessarily somali) migrations that were not memorized/ recorded by history? Leaving no linguistic traces but instead leaving genetic ones?

Contacts with Nilotic groups like the Samburu, Turkana and Masai have only occured recently, and even then, the mixing has been kept to a minimum. This is not the case for other Cushitic speakers, like the Rendille and Borana Oromo, who have also been culturally influenced by Nilotes.

According to Tishkoff many kenyan ethnicities (incl. bantu speaking kikuyu) have some cushitic component. Do you think it comes from the oromo/rendile rather than from somalis?

[QualityReachOut]

AFAIK Most of the Ethiopian Commodities in medieval times (at least after the restoration of the Solomonic Dynasty but probably before that too) had three main arteries leading to the coast. One was from Sudan or west Gonder through Gonder/begemeder Proper (North of Lake Tana) and then through Lasta and finally heading to Massawa, the other was from the North but closer to central Ethiopia (f.e. South and west of Lasta) through Shewa and finally heading to Zeila, and the last one was from the southern Tributaries/periphery of the empire (like Hadya and Damot) through Shewa and finally again heading to Zeila. These are the ones that I can recall, now I'm not sure about want went through to Mogadishu, maybe this has something to do with the Ajuran state importing gold that goes through the Northern trade route and then redirects via shewa, but I would have guessed it would go to zeila and then to Mogadishu, instead of directly going to Mogadishu, in return the state would export gums and resins? I haven't read much about the Ajuran, but this is a possibility I guess, maybe you probably know more about it?

Sorry for the late reply man, bit busy. I can't find the exact quote or book i read it from, but this discussion about assimilation-client status between ethnic groups in the Horn reminded me of this particular trade route involving Gold that went from Gondar and passed Luuq all the way to Mogadishu from where it again was exported. It's either the Wardeh Oromos (who were said to have been assimilated by the Ajuuraans), or Christian traders from Gondar itself that manned those caravans, the latter would not have been out of place considering Jewish, Hindu and Pagan traders conducted their commerce without interference at these port cities aswell.

[petrarkaponye]

not to go in detail but i think most people who have more Bantu/nilotic admixure in the horn are Haweiye somalis and Shoa Amhara. Ugly motherfuckers.

http://www.newstimeafrica.com/wp-con...eikh-Ahmed.jpg