[Slonopotam845]

Dear rohit
Youa re talkign very superficial things here.

I am again letting you to think about when two neurons fire and give an electric impulse , they dont perceive it as a thought.

Understand modern science is still learnign about brain functions. they have still not understood anything about thoughts. They ahve not come any closer to awareness and consciousness that the vedas talk. So your talk is good enough for a science forum where they are learnign which part of brain is involved in which perceptions.

we are dealign here, who is involved in perceiving the "I". So rohit keep reading science books and discoveries and keep updated on the discoveries of brain fucntions.

Unless you purify your mind and ego , you cannot get a glimpse fo what vedanta talks.

So chant manu padme hum more and then reduce the intensity of your thoughts in your mind and so you will know you are not this mind and body but the perceiver of all this.
Good luck with your chanting.

[Drugmachine]

Yes Pradheep, when the brain stops serving its basic and intended functions, even the deepest and most complex things that need a fully functional brain to grasp and understand them, unfortunately look superficial, precisley as they do to you. Otherwise you would have known by now that no one in the entire history of humankind has ever denied the importance of memory as you have denied it so heedlessly and thoughtlessly.

I have said this countless times now that as your brain is deeply engrossed in all sorts of fallacies and misunderstandings on everything, misunderstanding on Advaita/Vedanta is no exception. And precisely for these reasons you always have remained incapacitated to see, grasp and understand some of the most fundamental flaws in the Advaitic premises, conclusions and many other serious problems that follow subsequently in Advaita, making it hopelessly and utterly untenable - false.

Let me give you a very important hint and help you understand the precise position of Advaita. There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of either the creation by an absolutely inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging...Advaitic "Self/Atman/Brahman" or the evolution through an absolutely unchanging, immutable.... Advaitic "Self/Atman/Brahman" - the best advice for you is to throw your article in the rubbish bin and start using your own brain it is evolved for.

Therefore, it is right and high time that you try to recall and remember what I had said in the other threads that I have far better understanding on Vedanta/Advaita than you ever had, have now and will ever have. Not only Vedanta, I have thoroughly researched other religious doctrines too. Since, you have imprisoned yourself in a little cage from which you can never escape now, your brain has accepted the little cage as the universe.

It is utterly irrelevant and futile for a person like you to point fingers at something on which he has no grasp, knowledge or understanding whatsoever and, on top of that, when he himself is utterly deluded, confused and remains unable to think, feel, experience and remember correctly.

No matter how high you jump up and down, bang yourself sideways or diagonally, the reality would not go away. Like I have said 1000s of times now that consciousness is an evolved effect and not the cause.

Let me try to make you understand it in your own analogic language:

1. Like mirages, formed on hot surfaces, produce illusory perceptions of water, similarly consciousness is an illusory effect resulting from well co-ordinated neurological activities in the brain and it has no independent existence in the absence of an active brain or an equivalent neurological network.

2. Like heat and/or light are the effects of fire, consciousness is nothing but a product - an overall effect of the entire neurological activities and processing in the brain.

3. Like sunlight being the effect of the Sun burning its own core through constant thermonuclear fusion reactions, constantly changing itself by losing over 500 trillion kilograms of its mass everyday, similarly consciousness is an effect arising from a co-ordinated firing of billions of neurones in the brain.

While the brain itself draws the energy, required for performing its functions, from the blood supply.

And precisely for these reasons, humans can do absolutely nothing without a neurologically active brain, the fact which you have no option but to accept and acknowledge, which you have already done.

Now keep going round the circle again and please try readings, remembering, grasping and then understand and realise this:

An active brain is not just memory, but the one and only unseen witness/perceiver/seer/experiencer/thinker/knower of the entire phenomenon and much more.

So, both ways, you are trapped and you remain trapped into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation, there is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count, which, due to the intensity of your Dvaitic (Dualist) = body + perceiver regressions, goes up by two to 2N+103.

[Peptobismol]

said 1000s of times now that consciousness is an evolved effect and not the cause. Dear Rohit,


Like you the church beleived in the west (not the east) that sun revolved around the earth, because they see that truth with their own eyes. They argued with the people like copernicus ,galelio etc for 1000 times.

However east was clear about clear about earth was round and was revolving around the sun. Butit took centuries forthe west to understand it andnotmerely what they see the illusion of sun moving accross the sky.

Similarly, my dear "western" friend, western science has yetto understand that consciousness is not an effect but the un-caused cause. The consciousness you tell is called awareness in eastern science which is an effect. I tell you this a million times and unless you take the proper means you willl stillbein the illusion of beleiving your eyes like your western ancestors 300 years ago.

Atleast follow one advice of your new guru "|Buddha". Beleive in you and not any one else. Learn his meditation and do not beleive all the scientific discoveriues adn evidences. Find out within you what thetruth is. that is the best proof and best evidence. |Keep your books aside and use your own brain to seek the real answers.

[Ifroham4]

The Human brain has a lot of opiate like receptors, and human body does produce opiate analogs based on responce to some nerve stimulus. One example is extreme pain, we do not perceive too much pain, under those circumstances these opiate analogs make sure that we hallucinate. Similar phenomenon has been widely documented in near death experiences. May be meditation elicits one such mental state. But the concept 'I' is more projected as something entirely different from the body, may be those higher mental states can make one feel so detached from oneself, thanks to hallucinations or pseudo complete shutting down of thought process, as correctly pointed out by pradheep objective reality is almost non existance without a concious observer, if it is observed then a concious observer is a must, is the observer the detached 'I'. It is quite possibly that we have souls or its equivalents that define the 'I' and beyond, but we do not have any proofs for that, this brings into the picture what the I does after death, is the 'I' only for humans, what about the other living things, including plants ?. Whatever if medidation can provide such non addicting hallucination, enjoy it buddy !
Lack of scientific evidence does not disprove anything, but at the same time, since we cannot disprove it scientically does not mean that we have to belive in it. Both of them are driven by the fact that we know so little.

[HedgeYourBets]

I have asked you much more than the above, but you have completely avoided answering any of them Dear Rohit
I have always answered your questions but if you cannot understand, what can i do. i can only use different examples to make you understand the message.

Now you are clearly contradicting and falsifying your own above quoted statements I am not contradicting. You fail to understand that consciousness is different from awareness. Awareness is a phenomenon of the neuronal activity and not consciousness.

have used Sun's energy E, generated by violently active process of nuclear fission, and which takes some 7 minutes to reach the earth, as an analogy in your article, if at all it ("I/Self") is something different from energy E You have a serious problem in understanding an analogy. In the article I have used Sun's energy and the formation of a river to explain awareness and consciousness. You ahve taken it literally and have ended up with the problem as usual. Many times I have quoted the sufi's proverb " An idiot looks at the finger that points the moon". You look at the finger and not at the moon and that seriously affects your understanding.

1) Who is asking the question "Who Am I" and to whom? you will get the answer when you ask that question when you purify your mind according to dalai lama and Buddha. To answer that the Ego ask the question. To understand what Ego means you have to undergo a process of purification of mind.

2) Who is supposed to find the answer and reply to whom? The Ego does finds the answer and replies to the Ego itself.

3) Who is the subject and who or what is the object? There is no subject and object. these two occurs when Ego is there. When the Ego is transcended there is only oneness.

4) Why do you have to show the gross body in your diagrams to realise "I/Self"? when people cannot understand simple explanations I have to use diagrams to explain. Even if they cannot ....... I am comming with a simpler practical version in the month of october. Probably that may help you.

Pradheep, don't just stay stuck and keep seeking refuge in Buddhism. Buddhism is just an off shoot of vedanta. Vedanta is the umbrealla underwhich Buddhism is a mushroom and for you that is a good umbrella.

When you understand Vedanta I will make you clear what Buddha dismissed as Atman/Brahman and what he means by nothingness.

of the never-ending vicious cycle that you are in Probably you should keep reading whatever i wrote for a long time repeatedly to understand the message. Till then keep doing the cycle.

[HedgeYourBets]

Thank you Mahadevan for your valuable input

You are absolutely right in saying that brain can operate in countless states and levels and even can be self-driven into hallucinating states or into total oblivion. When in hallucinating or equivalent oblivious empty states, not even a vague description of the experiences is possible without the use of memory. Without recording, no retrieval of information is ever possible and that is a well-established universal fact as well as a matter of common experience, irrespective of the field involved, whether it is psychology, neuroscience or philosophy.

Thank you again

[Lt_Apple]

Dear Pradheep,

I can clearly see how and why the constant hallucinations and sliding down the infinite spiral of regression prevents you from thinking, feeling, experiencing and remembering the reality as it is.

Creation, Intelligent Designer - ID, Human Toys, Human Robots etc. are precisely the terms used by the creationists like yourself to propagate their delusions of "creation" and "intelligent design - ID" while completely forgetting that freewill, autonomous thinking etc. are completely contradictory to their thoughtless theories of Creation and Intelligent Design - ID.

It is really laughable when a person like you who has deluded himself to such an extent of believing himself as created/designed "toys, robots etc." and who has totally abandoned the process of autonomous thinking and of feeling, experiencing and remembering anything correctly - behaves exactly like a taking robot without autonomous thinking ability or freewill and trapped himself in a vicious cycle of infinite regress.

The idea of puppet, robot, design, programming, programmer are only applicable to the deluded creationists like you and your American friends. The beliefs of creation and design of humans only applies to creationists like you who cannot comprehend the process of absolute evolution and needs a separate intelligent designer and programmer - ID for their design.

While there is no such thing as design, when it comes to the absolute evolution of the universes and life itself. There is no need whatsoever for the involvement of any imaginary creators or designers when an absolute, uncaused evolution of the universe and then life sets itself in process. The billions of years of such uncaused and progressive evolutionary process results in fully aware and conscious human being exactly as we know them, not less; no more. There is absolutely no need for an imaginary external entity as, the very consciousness has evolved as an effect through the evolutionary process, which, due to suppressed and dormant minimal activity in your brain, it cannot grasp it as its is. Precisely the way your brain has completely failed to grasp and understand that mirages, heat, sunlight are nothing but the effects and deludes itself to an extent of hallucination where it starts to sees an entity that does not exist. Like I said before, what you experience as unconditioned consciousness is nothing but the dormant and latent neurological activities in the brain which manifests itself as unconditioned consciousness - an evolved effect.

Anyway, you might feel lucky when your growing son gains the privilege of learning all about Intelligent Designer - ID and how "He" has designed human believer toys/robots like you and your American believer friends.

While the uncaused absolute evolution of human allows them to field program their brains and boot them from a variety of operating systems selected either by their parents or by their religious gurus. The variety of operating systems available to them may go something like this:

- Amazing Delusions Of Adviata For Human Toys
- Intelligent Designer - ID For Human Robots
- Fantastic Quran For Human Fanatics
-
- etc.......

While on the other hand, a few, when they grow up, consciously reject the old and primitive operating systems as listed above and choose to reboot their brains with a much more advanced evolved system:

- Rational, Logical And Scientific Thinking For Conscious and Aware Humans.

So, the process of absolute evolution provides you with a variety of choices of operating systems that are field programmable, either by yourself or through your religious gurus. The choice is yours and only yours which operating system to use, but all are available only under the brand of Absolute Evolution of the Universe and Humans and they are not a created or designed by a Creator or an Intelligent Designer, who does not/cannot exists by default.

Untill you grasp the precise process of absolute evolution, use Amazing Delusions Of Adviata For Human Toys as your operating system and keep going round the circle whilke trying reading, remembering, grasping and then understanding and realising precisely what I said, what the brain really is:

So, either ways, you are trapped and you remain trapped into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation. There is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count. Since, you have remained utterly oblivious in recognising the absolute impossibility of an absolutely idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable entity creating or involving in evolution; and as you have also demonstrated a four fold intensity of Panchvaitic (Pentaist) = body + perceiver + awareness + consciousness + toy/robot in your regressions, your regression count shoots up by 8 and goes to 2N+118

[9mm_fan]

Memory itself is a thought, but not witnessing.

Please try reading, remembering, grasping and then understand and realise this:

An active brain is not just memory, but the one and only unseen witness/seer/experiencer/thinker/knower of the entire phenomenon and much more.

Anyway, Pradheep please carryon with your self-deceptive experiences without remembering - storing and retaining in, and then recalling from, the memory.

I guess, you must be in a very heavy meditative - thoughtless and memoryless - state while writing your above post about your experiences , else how could you write anything about your experiences - the neurological activities in the brain - without remembering - storing and retaining in, and then recalling from, the memory? My dear Pradheep, you are unwarily but definitely turning yourself into a ***** of the first rank.

Yes Pradheep, precisely that, what I meant was/is your consolation out of all this, quickly turning you into a memoryless state, now posting stories of all your phantasms.

[tgs]

My feeling from what I remember of my dreams is that they are closely related to the happenings in your life.

If it was something eternal how come we see our family, friends in your dreams and also how are the incidences close in essense (situation may be different) to your feelings and emotions

Is our mind playing some games out of boredom.

[MannoFr]

Critical analysis of "in the present"

The past, present and the future are the concepts that are unarguably attached to time T.

If one ever tries to critically analyse the thought of being "in the present", one would soon realise that there is no such thing as "in the present". Everything that one knew in the past, knows now and will ever know in the future with any certainty was, is and will be about the past. Nothing whatsoever can be known about the literal present or the literal future.

The reason is quite simple, only if analysed and grasped critically.

There is always a time delay between the occurrence of an event or an event of experience and the event being observed externally and/or experienced internally. There are further time delays in the subsequent sequence that follows the event or the event of experience, which involve a time to acknowledge, a time to register, a time to relate and/or correlate, a time to process the bulk of information, a time to reach a judgement followed by a time to form a valid conclusion about the event or the event of experience that occurred a while or long ago.

Nothing whatsoever of this sequence can happen strictly concurrently or simultaneously. Thus, an event/experience, in all its finest detail and resolution, can truly be known only after it has already happened and has become the past. So, the situation being "in the present" never existed, it does not exist and it will never exist. The only fact that one can ever truly know, is about the past; no matter how short or long time ago it happened. The time dely "dT" involved may vary from a tiny fraction of a second to billions of years, but it can never be "0".

Conclusion:

The thought of being "in the present" is nothing but a delusion as, the very situation being "in the present" never existed, it does not exist and it can/will never exist. An acute, transcendental paradox that can be resolved neither by a series of mere wishful and heedless thoughts nor by the extremes of absurd desires.

This ends the critical analysis of the thought of being "in the present" with a confirming conclusion that "We can never be in the present", only nothing can be in the present.

[TorryJens]

Memory itself is a thought, but not witnessing.

A person who is different from the computer witnesses all these events.

Dear Pradheep,

As your brain has completely lost its ability to think, feel, experience the reality as it is and now it has degenerated even further after loosing its ability to remember, I strongly recommend you not to watch images of human brain and body on your computer screens. Also stop watching too much of television programs and other fantasy and fictional films. Your brain is getting too deluded and confused to know the actuality by watching these computer images and programs as it thinks and believes that it is witnessing itself and the body displayed on the screens, while it is still in your head and has neither disappeared into the computer or projector nor into the computer, TV or film screens.

Pradheep, first of all your brain has lost the ability to think, feel and experience correctly; and now it has also lost the ability to remember. But let me try to explain you that humans can correctly witness events or event experiences if and only if their brain is active and fully functional through properly co-ordinated neurological activities and processes and responds appropriately and correctly to all the presented stimuli. Whether it is about the viewing of the Sun, Mount Everest, the glaciers, Sun's reflections on either turbulent water streams or calm water surfaces, colours, graphical images or texts on computer/TV screens or whether it is among the billions upon billions of other events and event experiences; it is one and only the brain that does the witnessing. That is why, though utterly pointless to tell you, you have no options but to keep bringing hundreds upon hundreds of objective and subjective analogies that have no resemblance whatsoever to what you blindly think and believe them to be. Witnessing events on computer, TV or film screens is no different. The normally functioning brain is all the more neurologically active to such stimuli. But unfortunately your deluded and hallucinating brain is getting carried away by such display of images. So, please remember that it is only the neurological activities in the brain that carries out the function of witnessing these events and memory is an integral part of the entire witnessing process. Once you understand the basic principle of such witnessing process, apply your own idea of extending the logic to all other processes too of witnessing.

It is now clear that you have lost vital brain functions either due to past traumatic experiences or through constant and heavy consumption of hallucinogenic drugs or through some weird physically abusive means. Your brain is unable to remember the facts about itself and plunges itself into a vicious cycle of infinite regress. Precisely for these reasons you have kept committing the same mistake again and again of forgetting that it is the brain that does all the witnessing through a co-ordinated process of neurological activities, and memory is an integral part of the whole process.

As explained above, you have now, as you always have, already entered the vicious cycle of infinite regress. Your brain forces itself into some weird and hallucinating experiences, but it remains unable to remember anything as it is forcing itself into distorting its own memory to an extent as if there is no memory.

In that case, I would strongly recommend you to stop all your brain washing and brain damaging activities and try to learn and remember about its essential activities and different types of memory i.e. episodic memory, semantic memory etc. it uses in carrying out the entire process of witnessing, and then understand how to verify and validate it's accuracy.

Once you have stopped your brain washing and brain damaging activities and learnt and remembered the fundamentals of brain/memory functions, then I will explain you how computer works and uses the dumb electric energy to generate all these colourful graphical images and texts on the CRT, TFT, Plasma, front/back Projection etc. screens. Then, I will also explain you how only three basic colours produce millions upon millions shades of different colours with varying resolution.

If you still remain unable to think, feel, experience and remember correctly, you have no option but to go back to your good old regression cycle and up your regression counts exactly from where you left in “Do you believe in Evolution or Creation (God)?” thread, I am afraid.

Let me remind you, your last regression count was 2N+100; and with your above regressive post, your regression count goes up by one to 2N+101. Also remember that, if you fail to understand and remember all that I have explained to you so far, it will automatically increment your regression count by the intensity of your next regression. At the same time, you must remember that not only remembering but writing and posting about your self-deceptive and delusive thoughts, feelings, experiences are also the neurological activities of the brain, but, in your case, they tend to be highly deluded and distorted due to various reasons as stated above.

So, either way, you have trapped yourself into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation, there is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count, which is 2N+101.

[Ifroham4]

Dear SRS
can yougiveme couple of days time,I am writing a small article which will explain what you asked.

[Drugmachine]

I have asked you much more than the above, but you have completely avoided answering any of them

Dear Rohit
I have always answered your questions but if you cannot understand, what can i do. i can only use different examples to make you understand the message.

Vedanta tells us that the very purpose of life on Earth is to know the Self, because that was the fundamental question that "caused" creation. There was a question that arose "Who Am I?"

Awareness is a phenomenon of the neuronal activity and not consciousness.

Neuroscientists have quite a few, modern and very precise brain-scanning equipment available to them in order to study various brain activities under various stages and conditions. The following list of equipment provides a hint of the variety or equipment available for brain scanning and imaging.

- CT or CAT (Computerised Axial Tomography)
- MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging)
- SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computerised Tomography)
- PET (Photon Emission Tomography)
- EEG (Electroencephalogram)

Neuroscientists over the globe have used various brain scans to study various activities in the brain like metabolic rates, blood-flow rates, neurological activities and various other mental activities during

- Wakefulness
- NREM Sleep (Sleep onset)
- REM Sleep (Dream State)
- Normal Sleep (NREM but Deep Sleep)
- Sleep Deprivation

What is unanimously found by neuroscientists across the globe is starling and that shatters all beliefs of unconditioned consciousness, projected by our dear friend Pradheep, who obviously found himself grossly humiliated after learning about his contradictions, which completely falsified all his beliefs and thoughts about the source of thoughts, feelings, experiences and body and body perception.

a) The activities of modulatory neurones, neurotransmitters and other chemical balance change during the above five stages.

b) Neural activities and other chemical balance are normal as expected during the wakeful state.

c) Neural activities and other chemical balance change from normal and reduce both during NREM (Sleep onset) and Sleep Deprivation states. The neural activities in the brain are more or less identical during these two states - NREM (sleep onset) and sleep deprivation states.

d) Neural activities and other chemical balance change again from reduced activities to more than normal activities during the REM Sleep.

e) Neural activities and other chemical balance surprisingly come back to normal during NREM Deep Sleep state. But the processing of sensory information is minimal simulating the pure unconditioned consciousness.

Neuroscientists find no brain state in which brain activities cease completely, unless it is a brain of the dead. The unconditioned consciousness that our friend Pradheep is talking about is nothing but the minimal activity of the brain when the brain goes in its latent or dormant state, precisely the state that our friend Pradheep is trying to associate with unconditioned consciousness to forward further his delusions on "Self".

It is not at all surprising why our dear friend Pradheep remains always stuck with his body and can't write or talk about unconditioned consciousness without the brain in his body. He always end-up with meaningless analogies that always involve objective and subjective items of the physical world. He gets completely numbed and muted when I point him the meaninglessness of his analogies that have no resemblance whatsoever to what he thinks it to be.

I think, this is more than enough to show the gobbledegook that our friend Pradheep thinks, feels, experiences, writes and posts. He can’t even remember what definitions I have asked him to provide but he still thinks and believes that he has answered all. Well, what more than this do we need to testify Pradheep's utter misunderstandings on Advaita/Vedanta?

Good Luck

[Fegasderty]

Recap of the three states: Visva - Walking state, Taijasa - Dream state and Prajna - Deep sleep state

Mandukya Upanishad: original verse in Sanskrit:

Bahishpragno vibhurvishvo hyantragnastu taijas: |
dhanpragnastha pragna ev thridha smrit: || 1 ||

Source: Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.

Translation 1:

Visva (the first quarter) is he who is all-pervading and who experience the external (gross) objects. Taijasa (the second quarter) is who cognizes the internal (the subtle) objects. Prajna (the third quarter) is who is a mass of consciousness. It is alone who is known in the three states.

Sankara's commentary:

The purport (the meaning) of the verse is this:

The transcendence of the three states by the Self, its unity, purity, and unrelatedness (to anything) are proved by the fact of Its existence in the three states in succession and of its being inter-linked by memory as "I". This is borne out by illustration of the great fish and others in the Vedic texts.

Source: Mandukya Upanishad with Gudapada's Karika and Sankara's commentary.
Translated by Swami Nikhilananda Published by Advaita Ashrama

Translation 2:

Visva experiences the external things and is all-prvading; but Taijsa experiences the internal things; similarly, Prajna is mass of consciousness. It is but the same but the same entity that is thought of in three ways.

Sankara's commentary:

The implication of this passage is this:

That Atman is (as witness) distinct from the three states (witnessed) and that is pure and unrelated, is established by his moving in three states, in succession, and also on account of the knowledge "I am that". Resulting from the experience which unites through memory. The Sruti also corroborates it by the illustration of the "great fish".

It was shown in my previous posts how the brain scan and images taken by different brain-scanning equipment reveal various neurological and chemical activities in the brain at various stages and conditions. I have also said that we could never be conscious or aware of what is happening in the brain. But today we have the technology and means to probe into brain's spheres of activity, study and know what is happening in the brain in various states and conditions. And how this equipment enable us to probe into much deeper and lower level of brain's latent or dormant state activities that are responsible for certain mental as well as physical conditions that were beyond the scope of grasp and comprehension in ancient times.

There are further more states than those three sleep sates, whereby brain's activities diminish to such a lower level that all the thoughts, feelings, experiences and concepts of "I/Self/Atman" gradually tend to disappear and then into literally nothing at death.

Such diminishing conditions occur in serious brain injuries, blackouts, and momentary lack of blood supply or oxygen supply to the brain - as the one and only internal, unseen witness.

There are even further lower states when person ends up in coma due to varied reasons and causes.

There are several scales of coma ranging from 3 to 15 to describe the severity of coma, scale 3 being a person in a coma with the lowest possible score and 15 being a normal appearing person. Research shows that if the scale remains below 4 after twenty-four hours, 87% of those individuals in coma will either die or remain in a vegetative state.

CT, MRI, SPECT and other brain scans are used to study and examine abnormalities in the brain's physical conditions, like swelling, cerebral blood flow rates, chemical balance, neurological activities etc.

When patient dies in coma, all neurological activities cease. All thoughts, fellings, experiences of "I" once he had, disappears literally into nothing, irrespective of the person, whether he/she is a meditating one or a non-meditating one.

[Paul Bunyan]

I can have the thought of "I" with the perception of the body and without also. In dreaming state I dont have the perception or feeling of this body lying ona bed. Still I have an I thought. So even without a body I can have "I".

Yes without having the perception of the body I can have the feeling of "I" in deep sleep. But is the "I" that I experience in waking state, dream state and deep sleep state are different.

Please read the use of words "thought", "feeling" and "experience" in your own replies. Also note that you have stated the occurrence of thought of "I" without the perception of body.

And below is what you are writing now:

thoughts, emotions, feelings etc. arise due tothe neuronal firing.

Now you are clearly contradicting and falsifying your own above quoted statements by stating that thoughts, emotions, feelings etc. arise due to the neurones firing in the brain

When you don't even know what you are thinking, feeling, experiencing and then writing heedlessly; what kind of sense do you think and believe you are writing or talking, my friend?

Please try to understand the fact that the brain is located in the head and both the head - along with the eyes, ears, nose, mouth/speech etc. sense organs - and the brain are vital organs of the body; not seeing or having the perception of body, isn't and cannot be the same as without body. Only your mind plays tricks with you and makes you think, feel, experience and then believe that there is no body. If you really believe all these tricks played by your mind/brain, you can believe anything when your mind plays even cleverer tricks with you under the influence of psychotic drugs or similar psychotic mental conditions, as you have just mentioned.

Previously you even have denied the fact, which I repeated 1000s of times elsewhere in the forum-hub that thoughts are a neurological phenomenon in the brain. Irrespective of what you think and believe powers your thoughts, you have clearly demonstrated the fact that your mind/brain is already playing consequential and detrimental tricks on you and made you think and believe that you don't have a body when you are asleep.

Anyway, I am glad that you have cleared one of the many serious misunderstandings you previously had and now you are on the right track by accepting the fact that thoughts are the neurological activities in the brain, powered by energy E = hf or E = mc^2. If you are suggesting, it is this energy E, which is obviously dumb, changeable, transformable, mutable, but conserved within the entire time-space contour, all pervading, uncaused cause of everything etc. etc. that you are referring as the "Self", I have no argument whatsoever against that and all your misunderstandings have a good chance to disappear into nothing.

However, though you have used Sun's energy E, generated by violently active process of nuclear fission, and which takes some 7 minutes to reach the earth, as an analogy in your article, if at all it ("I/Self") is something different from energy E, then you definitely have even serious neurological problems in your brain, the source of all your remaining misunderstandings that, somehow, must be cleared and I am more than happy to help you further to clear all your remaining misunderstandings.

As I have clearly given you the evidence and explanation how an easily conceivable event, falsifies your entire belief when you cease to repeat all that is in your above statements and only nothing comes out from you - precisely at the time "T", falsifying your entire belief and the thought of being "in the present". And how what you intend to project as subject, soon becomes an object of inquiry to another subject that no longer remains the same.

Please refer to your own analogy of the Sun and the rest as it is in your article and then clearly answer the following questions:

1) Who is asking the question "Who Am I" and to whom?
2) Who is supposed to find the answer and reply to whom?
3) Who is the subject and who or what is the object?
4) Why do you have to show the gross body in your diagrams to realise "I/Self"?

More questions to follow

Pradheep, don't just stay stuck and keep seeking refuge in Buddhism. Please move forward with your own beliefs rather than keep referring to Buddhism as, this tendency is neither going to clear your obvious and serious misunderstandings and confusions on Buddhism nor those on Advaita/Vedanta.

So, my dear friend, have some courage and be brave to accept and acknowledge your errors, mistakes, misunderstandings and whatever weaknesses that hinder you from getting out of the never-ending vicious cycle that you are in.

Good Luck!

[tgs]

Do you agree that scientific instruments would show no sign's of neurological activity, because of no thoughts?

Neuroscientists find no brain state in which brain activities cease completely, unless it is a brain of the dead.

So, the brain, as long as it is active, no matter how minimal, latent or dormant it is, it shows electrical and other activities that may or may not be related to thoughts, depending on the precise state it is in. Nonetheless, whatever minimal activities the brain - consisting of neural network, nervous system and associated cellular structure etc. - would show, are due to it registering and processing various experiences, feelings, and emotions in addition to it performing its vital functions of monitoring, regulating and controlling essential internal bodily functions.

When it (the brain) comes back into thinking state, it recalls witnessed events from the memory, which itself is an important part and neurological function of the brain. You have now clearly accepted, acknowledged and proved that Humans can do literally nothing without the brain (if it is literally not there, removed or it is dead) - an essential and indispensable organ of the Human anatomy. Like I have said many times now that the brain is the one and only unseen witness and much more in the entire phenomenon, whether in normal walking state, dreaming state, deep sleep state, delusive state, confused state, hallucinating state, schizophrenic state, under the influence of various intoxicants and psychotic drugs, other intermediate states or meditative states, brief strokes/episodes of blackouts, in monitoring, regulating and controlling internal bodily functions both in normal condition and during local and general anaesthetised states etc. etc. the list goes on.

As I have stated before, the brain, the one and only witness of the entire phenomenon, is not conscious or aware of itself or its own activity of witnessing - but it is there as more than just the witness, and this is why and how it often plunges into various perplexing and self-deceptive dilemmas. Now, it has become almost pointless to tell you and remind you of the countless evidences that I have produced here and in other threads to show and prove you (your brain) constantly going through all these self-deceptive dilemmas, precisely as I have stated. You also keep constantly forgetting that your body does have a head and it is not empty as you believe, but inside that head, resides the brain, the one and only, unseen witness and the source of all your (i.e. in your brain) misunderstandings, delusions and confusions borne out of self-deception - the phenomena that cannot and doesn't go without being witnessed by other, properly functioning, brains.

I would stronly suggest you to go back to the beginning of this topic and digest all my questions exactly as I have asked you about the body and try understanding all that followed after that. You may do this exercise as many times as you must, but do it until you grasp everything that I have said and proved.

By the way Pradheep, this is my one more attempt to help you remove your gross misunderstandings and confusions on Vedanta.

The Turiya is only called fourth quarter just to link the three experiences in order - now acknowledged by you as neuronal activities in the brain - as described before i.e. walking, dream and deep sleep and then the fourth quarter - the Turiya - was sought and then imagined/guessed to link the three experiences in order and arrive at a statement that attempts to blindly comply with the statements made in other vedic scriptural texts i.e. "That thou art". The referenced Upanishad clearly and rightly so, states and confirms that there is no means whatsoever left for realising or knowing Turiya other than the three states described before i.e. of walking, dream and deep sleep.

With this brief comment, I am delighted to re-write what I wrote before of which you could respond only to a tiny part, evidently that too with plenty of delirium, I am afraid.

Precisely as Sankara feared due to the sheer absence of any instrument of knowledge regarding Turiya or the absence of any means for realising Turiya; Turiya thus, with the advances in science and technology and the availability of modern instruments and means to probe into the brain's neurological and other activities that were never possible or accessible before, reduces to non-entity as the one and only possible and inevitable outcome and declares the absolute nihilism - nothing - sunya - void as the ultimate Truth - exactly as I have proved in other threads [C = 1, P = 0] and [C = 0, P = 1] under the two, precisely defined and specified, boundary conditions.

My dear Pradheep, it is only you who are in search of water in the desert and running after the mirages formed on hot surfaces of the desert and who thinks, sees and believes it is the waters of melted glacier of Mount Everest.

It is only you who thinks, sees and believes a rope in a snake.

It is only you who thinks, sees and believes the rattle of a rattlesnake as a toy and the snake itself as a rope.

No wonder, why you couldn't ever think, feel and experience that conforms to the reality as it is.

My friend, as I know it very well and now everyone knows too, that you are, without any doubt, a seriously deluded and confused person.

However, the only consolation for you, out of this, is to maintain those blind and false beliefs in the Atman/Soul/Brahman, exactly as you have been doing and have just done, irrespective of the clear evidences that are completely contrary to those beliefs.

Good Luck!

[PhillipHer]

What sort of deluded state are you in Rohit?"

The only, please read again - the only - deluded state I undergo is to hope that one day my dear friend Pradheep will talk some sense. But every time I read his unstable and oscillating thoughts about the created, creation and creator - known, knowing and knower - thought, thinking and thinker - subject observer, image projection and image object - awareness and consciousness - reflection/image, observing/observation and object of reflection - reflecting surface/object becomimng observer of reflection as well as object reflected - Vedanta, perceptions, thoughts, awareness, consciousness, judgement and conclusion , they all soon become the dead pieces of your thoughts - awareness, reflected by his consciousness etc. and soon turns into his delusions of being "in the presesnt".

While writing the critical analysis of "in the present" above, I happily hoped/thought that this time my dear friend Pradheep would definitely understand that whatever he writes about anything, would soon become yet more dead pieces of his thoughts as soon as he finished writing about it. What he intends to project as a subject, soon becomes an object of inquiry to a subject that no longer remains the same. He miserably fails to understand and realise the fact that he can never finish writing about the literal present, he can only write about what he thought about the presesnt a while ago and never about the literal present. Also he miserablly fails to realise that what have already become the dead piece of his thoughts, cannot become "in the present" when others read them after a time delay "dT" on this forum-hub as they have already become the past - born out of Pradheep's dead pieces of thoughts. And it likely that some may not even remain, so-believed by our dear friend Pradheep as being "in the presesnt", to read his persistent delusions of being "in the presesnt".

As I said earlier, no amount of wishful and heedless thoughts or the extremes of absurd desires can resolve the transcendental paradox of time delay "dT".

My dear friend Pradheep, you have yet again, successfully broken my delusion - that one day, you would talk some sense - by posting your above wishful and heedless thoughts, accompanied by the extremes of absurd desire that your dead thoughts would still become "in the present" when "I" read them, without going the sequence in time T.

Well done, Pradheep, I am really pleased and thankful to you that you are very busy in nullifying all my delusions about my hopes and thoughts about a potential for some improvement in your level of understanding of everything, which now also includes time T and the time delay "dT"

[Paul Bunyan]

Neuroscientists over the globe have used various brain scans to study various activities in the brain like metabolic rates, blood-flow rates, neurological activities and various other mental activities during

- Wakefulness
- NREM Sleep (Sleep onset)
- REM Sleep (Dream State)
- Normal Sleep (NREM but Deep Sleep)
- Sleep Deprivation Dear Rohit
Itis veryclear you have not understood anything from the article because you have not read it clearly. In bold letter there was a cuationary note. Inspite of that you have mis-understood that and have talked about sleep states. This is one instance to highlight that you have not read it properly and as expected you have misunderstood .Let me quote fromthe article.

Important note to avoid mis-understanding

Here we have to be very clear about the three states of existence. We should not literally take that we are discussing here about dreams and deep sleep states. We literally go into these three states everyday, but the point is that, we are in these three states even in the waking state.

This causal body is like "nothingness" that you experience similar to deep sleep state. With this clarity please go ahead, otherwise it will breed only confusion.
By mere imagination of the fourth stage and calling it Turiya state, This shows your very limited knowledge in science and also the biased nature. Meditation is being researched more vigorouslythan before. The reason is that what was considered as a witch craft shows evidences of proof. But science has to go further a lot before it can completely get to know about Cosnciosuness.

The only means for you to know is not to depend on the instruments, but use your own body. There is a procedure to know that,that millions of people have been doing , are doing and will be doing.

Rohit , your problem is that youhavenot doentheprocess and criticising it. You are like a guy denying glacier in mount everest without ever being there once.

Find the truth for your own and donot rely on no any one else. Because unlike all other truth, this is only for you, you (every individual) alone.

[Fegasderty]

Dear Rohit
The thought of being "in the present" is nothing but a delusion

what sort of deluded state are you in Rohit? Can any one deny the present. The present is life (that is why present is called a gift). Life is a gift - present. Every moment is only present. The moment you are reading this forumhub is also present. The moment, you are thinking, is no longer present...it is already past.
present is not in thinking. Every thought is a dead piece of information porcesssed in the brain. Even future is also in the present.

When you plan of a future event, it is still in the present. The future becomes a past dead thought the moment you think about it.

What Vedanta is talking is not about the dead "thinking" of thoughts, but the present, the very moment...awareness which is nothing but the reflection of the consciousness.

You are one and one proving the dead thoughts. I am talking about theliving present. Hope you can understand what I am conveing to you.

I would like you to explain what you mean by " nothing can be in the present".

[brraverishhh]

is that experience part of your perception, within your body or not? Dear Rohit,
I can have the thought of "I with the perception of the body and without also. In dreaming state I dont have the perception or feeling of this body lying ona bed. Still I have an I thought. So even without a body I can have "I".


Is there any way that you can experience "I" without your body or not? Yes without having the perception of the body I can have the feeling of "I" in deep sleep. But is the "I" that I experiecne in waking state, dream state and deep sleep state are different.