[Catalogov]

I'm not being bias, but for for my point, somehow, korean's Kumdo is more or less replica of japanese Kendo. Their Gi and Harkama is the same except colour. And if you have a look at Kumdo competition, you can see referee uses white and purple flag instead.
Not sure how you guys feel, somehow, i just find it quite funny they always prefer to use something that is different from the tradition.


And replying to Dr_evil ......

Dr_evil said ..
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Well I think the velcro hakama with the white stripes are COOL!!!!!!!!!

Hey, anybody knows where to get one????
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Well, DR_Evil, If you really want to wear one, u better wear them at home and not in SKC or any of the affiliated club. If you don't get wack by other seniors the sensei defiantely make u do non-stop kakarikeiko till your pant drop.

[Anfester]

This dichotomy which you mention Olaf is, I think, neatly summarised by the two concepts "ai-uchi" and "ai-nuki". Some branches of the Itto-ryu emphasise(d) "ai-uchi" as the ultimate technique, IOW, it doesn't matter if you get killed, so long as you take your opponent with you. The Yagyu-Ryu on the other hand, emphasised "ai-nuki", or "mutual escape". Rather than a stalemate ending in both bushi dying, it can end in both bushi surviving.

This is that grey area where Technique flows into Worldview and vice versa. Or to put it another way, what should we make of what we learn? How should we apply it in life? It depends partly on the psychology individual and partly on the

Re jukendo: I have to disagree with you there. I don't think you can say jukendo is any more or less 'offensive' than kendo. How is bayotting someone in a stylised fashion any more warlike than cutting someone in half in a stylised fashion?

b

[cauddyVab]

I think the stripe is a dark blue, rather than black (isnt it?). I recently got the opportunity to fence someone wearing this gear. When I first saw him I went "uh oh" and thought that maybe he was a senior korean kendoka..... but it turns out he was only shodan.

The threads look cool (I changed my mind after seeing them in proximity) but they wont make you a better kendoka.

The nicest hakama I have seen was a v.v.v dark red... the person wearing it was a young american lass. It wasnt a kendo keiko though.

[NerbuitW]

Ben: At least for me, the biggest difference between jukendo and kendo is that the techniques in jukendo were/are employed in modern wars. Thus, its martial ties are fresh and still salient to life (and death) today. I respectfully, but completely, disagree that jukendo is stylized in any way. If you put a bayonet on the end of the jukendo weapon (what's it called, I wonder?), you *can* go and skewer someone with those same techniques.

Kendo on the other hand doesn't really teach you how to strike with a sword, since the physics of a shinai are all sorts of different.

[Noxassope]

Oops my history is off by a decade, I meant "East Asia in the 1930s-40s"...

[Misebeita]

Yes, Olaf is correct. White hakamas with black stripes are worn in my Korean Kumdo school (the US Hwa Rang Kwan, check us out at http://www.kumdo.com). Advanced students (3-khup and higher) tend to wear all blue, just like Japanese kendoka.

[Lt_Apple]

Thanks to Sup for a very informative and eloquently stated explanation of the Korean psyche and tradition. I agree with most of your points, regarding the importance of cultural identity, especially in such a polarized situation like the one that had existed between Korea and Japan.

On the other hand,Kendo is after all an element of Japanese tradition; putting your cultural or ideological preferences aside, when you commit yourself to studying the art of another culture, shouldn't this committment be accompanied by a certain level of respect and acceptance? If you were intent on learning about another culture, but approach your learning with both reverence and yet resistence, won't this end up being more of a mental roadblock to your progress or understanding?

I think as a general rule, when we voluntarily come into contact with facets of another culture, we are tacitly agreeing to abide by (at least partly) a new and alien set of rules, whether we like it or not. When in Rome, act like a Roman, right?

If Kumdo were all about "Koreans being Koreans", perhaps it would be more prudent for the Koreans to stick to studying a native Korean martial art? Cultural exchange is a two-way street - if your studying of kendo conflicts with certain ideologies, it may be best to cast some of those ideologies aside and allow certain tenets of kendo to fill up that gap. This is the process by which cultural dialogue allows individuals to reap the "best of both worlds". It is essentially at the core of what being a "citizen of the world" - especially in this day and age - is all about.

And - I really don't mean to be this harsh to your argument, Sup...just playing the devil's advocate - to embody so much cultural pride and identity in an "adidas stripe" or a piece of velcro...isn't that itself somewhat superficial? If Kumdo were all about Koreans taking a Japanese art and fitting it to a Korean set of values, perhaps the way to go would be to study, practice, and attain such a high mastery of this art that your Kumdo/Kendo ability surpasses that of even most Japanese! What better way to prove your culture's uniqueness and value, than to excel at an activity that is inherently foreign to you, by applying your own set of principles to it?

Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, gentlemen...

[mosypeSom]

cklin, I think you have hit the nail on the head. You find jukendo "offensive" because it is a little bit closer to home, because it maybe looks like a 'modern' battlefield technique. But I think this proves my point. I think there's a kind of self-deception in locating kendo's "lethality" in a distant past and using this as a defence for its martial origins.

Kenjutsu was in fact employed during the modern era. Many Australian Servicemen (and not just Australians) were beheaded with katana by their Imperial Japanese Army captors during WW2. So iaidoka (and kendoka too, if we practice kata with real swords) are all handling weapons which are facsimilies of ones that were potentially used against their grandparents.

And I have to disagree with you on the second point. Any mid to high grade kendoka (even the ones who don't practice iaido) could wield a sword with lethal effect. Yes kendo's main aim isn't to teach how to cut or kill with a sword, but its techniques (eg tsuki) would be no less effective with a live blade than jukendo's with a live bayonet.

I suppose my disagreement with you is, in short, if jukendo is "offensive", then kendo must be as well.

And my personal position? They both are and are-not "offensive"(!). I haven't totally worked that one out yet...

b

[Rellshare]

I second that Olaf. I want to say thanks to everyone, especially Sup, for their honesty in this thread. It's amazing to hear all these stories. It really gives me an insight into the sorts of issues some of my students, who represent nearly every East Asian country, might be facing by doing kendo. Thanks guys.

b

[sportbos]

Inner_cent: re. the blue and white flags, I believe those colours have the same meaning in Korea as red and white do in Japanese tradition, so I don't think it's change for the sake of it.

And as for the new blue and white judo gi . . .

[kentbrookug]

Thanks for all the replies fellas. Anyone know why Kendo World was down yesterday?

[Alex Photographer]

Ditto that, inner_cent.

Cklin: now that you brought up the personal issue of you trying to justify your study of kendo to your traditional Chinese grandparents...how would you explain your genuine devotion to this martial art?

Do you, too, share some of Sup's sentiments? How have you managed to compensate for the nationalistic pride factor?

Forgive me for the personal question...I am merely curious.

[Mehntswx]

Never saw the velcro hakama also, but I don't know if there's any need for it, himo works fine and is fancier. The black stripes and koshita of korean guys looks ugly I think. Full indigo blue is much nicer to my eyes.
here in the dojo we use to joke about fatty guys saying that their 'hara' (the 'Seat of Body power') is well-developed. Or that they should take off the extra Dodai they carry under the keikogi, this kind of uncorteous and sarcastic humor that arises in post-keiko beerfest.

[fapourfasiark]

cklin wrote "Kendo on the other hand doesn't really teach you how to strike with a sword, since the physics of a shinai are all sorts of different."

cklin is correct in my humble opinion, Kendo is only a part of Japanese Swordsmanship, Iaido is another part. The 2, if studied together can further the understanding of japanese sword use. Mostly Iai kata are practiced without a physical partner, for the obvious reason.

Put Kendo and Iaido skills together and you get a more rounded swordsperson, then add in some real cutting practice for good measure.


Richard

[Dr. Shon Thomson]

Oops! I see I didn't finish that sentence. I meant to say "...and partly on the teacher."

FWIW :0

b

[CGECngjA]

I dont know exactly how the velcro hakama works, but the function of the himo on a traditional hakama is quite specific (see article in KW2 on kendo and breathing). The knot that one ties at the front (otoko-musubi) should press lightly on the "one-point", that point below the navel that is reputed in Eastern medicine to be the seat of the body's power. Or, for mr alexpollijr, it is the point that represents the body's absolute centre of gravity.

Without knowledge of this part of the body and its effect on one's kendo, I would argue that it is impossible to exhibit "kigurai". The velcro fastening would seem to make this more difficult.

b

[emingeRek]

Ben: Thanks for the food for thought. I don't think I've labeled jukendo as "offensive," but it is kind of an extreme oddity... what with the mock-rifles.

The sword (well, actually probably more so the bow/arrow) is historically intertwined w/ bushido, whereas the bayonet has no real modern, philosophical equivalent. I suppose you can argue that there is a "way of the bayonet" but that seems somehow improbable. Without a philosophical basis (this is my assumption -- though I'm sure some will say this is untrue), it's runs more towards pure technique.

As to experienced kendoka being able to do some real damage w/ a shinken, I'm sure they could -- but then they could probably do so with an umbrella as well.

Of course, my opinion is rather uninformed seeing as how my only exposure to jukendo is through video clips and pictures in Japanese magazines that I can't read. And so I too have yet to sort all this out...

[anenselog]

Cklin: now that you brought up the personal issue of you trying to justify your study of kendo to your traditional Chinese grandparents...how would you explain your genuine devotion to this martial art? Now I will say this once, The Japanese did some pretty F*cking horrible things during the war.

The stories my grand parents tell...jeez...

The pain still runs deep in. My grandad was forced to climb coconut trees to "fetch" for japanese soldiers. Under the tree they placed their bayonets to "motivate" him to climb. Or how my other grandfather had to go into hiding because he was in the home guard. Meaning if the japanese caught him he would be beheaded. The stories go on...etc

I must admit at times feel awkward telling them about things like...eg. kendo or my girlfriend (who is japanese). Though they were really cool about the girlfriend...surprisingly.

Kendo...to me..is a philosophy, discipline and martial art. What happened during the war was done by people not the philosophy of Kendo.

Darwin came up with some very good theories on evolution. The Nazis read this all wrong...eg. survival of the fittest. putting forward the meaning the Aryan's where superior...etc

What I'm trying to say here is that the philosophy is sound but it is the conduct and the rational of the people who practice it that can go wrong.

By this post I bear no hate. There is enough of that in the world as it is. But at the same time the sins of the past should not be forgotten, lest we repeat them again.

Kendo teaches us a lot of good and it is not a bad martial art.

PEACE
Meng

[HawksBurnDown]

Of course, I don't have sufficient cultural background for ammo to continue this engaging dialogue. Though I can't say I'm completely ignorant of how many Chinese kenshi feel about the intrinsic cultural clash between their heritage and the values embodied in kendo... during my work in Shanghai and Hong Kong some years ago I was fortunate enough to become quite involved in the local kendo communities, and heard many a WWII story from some of the older members, or at least from their retelling of family stories.

In retrospect, this historical aspect of kendo probably poses the most challenging dichotomy of all, between the set of values running the gamut from bushido to kamikaze, and the process of internalizing these values and somehow adapting them to our own set of beliefs and what not.

But cklin - I definitely agree with the jukendo part - that is perhaps one of the most offensive "sports" or 'arts" I have ever seen. I saw a videotape of a budo demonstration once, and saw the maniac bayonette fellas. Completely ridiculous. That should have been outlawed long ago...or at least get players to use regular sticks and not those wooden rifle-shaped "shinai".

[DrazAdwamoi]

The comment about Jukendo sounds almost correct to me.

The last knife-specialized batallion in function in the world's modern armies was decimated in the Falklands Wars. It was an Argentinian battalion. If we take a look at modern guns, they no longer are designed to carry bayonets. The Enfield (Eng), the Steyr Aug (Aus), all these are impossible to use with Jukendo/French bayonet techniques, and don't feature support for it.

And about kendo. sure. shinai kendo is different from real sword techniques, we still have Iaido, Kendo Kata and Tameshigiri, which employs a 'real' sword.