[PolPitasc]

Hey, this question was actually inspired because I ran 20 mi last night, but am much more sore than I normally am, because I haven't ran in a while and that's the farthest I've gone yet. But I figure that it could be applicable to harder kendo workouts, or just cross training in general, so it still has a bit of relevancy. Anywho, my knees hurt a fair amount when I put pressure on them, and I have iai practice coming up, so do you guys have any tips to for faster recovery? All I'm doing now is stretching alot and trying to get plenty of rest and protein (surprisingly difficult). Any other input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[LorencoLoricelli]

Hey, this question was actually inspired because I ran 20 mi last night...

God, I hate kids.

[RokeIdeadioke]

God, I hate kids.

Hahaha.

Anyways. Other than stretching out and trying to get a lot of rest, the only things I can think of that might help would be maybe use some kind of menthol-ish ointment like 'Tiger Balm' or 'Bengay,' and drink lots of water.

But maybe you shoul lighten your running load a little, too, lol. At least until you get back into it. Twenty miles is a pretty long distance to jump back into things at.

[kaysions]

God, I hate kids.

Especially when they're in shape.... I can't even run to the toilet in the middle of the night anymore...

Physiologically speaking, muscular soreness should mean that the muscles are compensating for the extra work and may become stronger. You need to alternate work with rest. Depending on the exercise objective, you go for reps/distance or weight/speed. Joint pain, otoh, is a warning sign. BEWARE over-exercising. Good stretching will prevent injury. Having said that, depending on whether you want power or resistance, you may want to do cool down jogs or not. If you want raw power, you want lactic acid in your muscles so do your cool downs but don't jog to leach out the acid. This will cause more discomfort. If you want endurance, you can do the jogs to release some of that crap out of your muscles.

Did you see a doctor before starting your current exercise program. Do you have past injuries? Knee pain is something I live with and it's nothing to screw around with. You don't want to get surgery so you may want to ease off. The other warning sign, btw, is when you have back pains after running.

To summarize, muscle pain good. Joint pain BAD...

[girlsround]

Assuming it's muscle pain and not joint pain, one way to reduce soreness is to repeat the same exercise, but at a lower intensity and shorter duration.

[MYMcvBgl]

so do you guys have any tips to for faster recovery? .

Ice Baths...Just make sure you don't have a heart or other condition that back and forth exposure to cold/hot may harm you....

You can do a full dunk, which is REALLY cold...or you can dip just your lower torso. I'm lucky enough to have two baths so I fill one up with Cold water and Ice and the other with Hot water.

After a hard practice and there is another one the next day, I do about 4-5 timed soakings in the cold water.

Soak 1 - Sit in the cold one for 5 minutes - Hot for 2.
Soak 2-4 Sit in the cold for 3 minutes - Hot for 1.
Soak 5 - Sit in cold for as long as I can stand at this point and then soak in Hot to relax.

The other option that is so-so and was recommended in Muscle & Fitness back in the early 90s is to switch the temp back and forth from hot to cold while showering..same concept, but from my XP, not as effective.

Ice Baths are cold and miserable but do wonders for recovery....

[Sdzqerty]

Ice Baths...Just make sure you don't have a heart or other condition that back and forth exposure to cold/hot may harm you....

You can do a full dunk, which is REALLY cold...or you can dip just your lower torso. I'm lucky enough to have two baths so I fill one up with Cold water and Ice and the other with Hot water.

After a hard practice and there is another one the next day, I do about 4-5 timed soakings in the cold water.

Soak 1 - Sit in the cold one for 5 minutes - Hot for 2.
Soak 2-4 Sit in the cold for 3 minutes - Hot for 1.
Soak 5 - Sit in cold for as long as I can stand at this point and then soak in Hot to relax.

The other option that is so-so and was recommended in Muscle & Fitness back in the early 90s is to switch the temp back and forth from hot to cold while showering..same concept, but from my XP, not as effective.

Ice Baths are cold and miserable but do wonders for recovery....

This is what it's all about. It's miserable but it does seem to work.

[Maribellin]

I actually just heard about the cold water strategy from an ultra-marathon running friend of mine, sounds miserable, haha. Well, I definitely have joint pain, (knees and lower back, a lot less ankle pain this time than in past times though), and to be honest, I didn't really do this for sake of exercise, It'd be way more effective if I just ran shorter distances every other day or weekly if I wanted exercise, but I'm fit enough for now (I should be working on my arms, really). This was just more to prove to myself that I could in the snow/ice and wasn’t really as sick as I’ve been acting with the minor cold that’s been bugging me (it helped too, yea placebo). Irresponsible, yes, but eventually I want to train for a marathon (probably to take next summer) and I kind of wanted to see what my starting point was. As far as my joint history, well, my knees have always popped when I bend them, and then randomly last year they would pop out of socket (that's what it seemed like, anyway) if I bent them all the way, and I'd have to physically force them with my arms out of being locked up before I could move my legs again. I never got around to seeing a doctor about it, and it started being less and less of a problem, to the point where it would just kind of pop out and back in when I'd bend my legs, but wouldn't lock up, and only cause minor discomfort. Then the problem went away entirely at the start of last summer (Ironically right as I came back from a break from iaido, maybe it helped?) and hasn't bothered me since. I think the knee and back trouble came just because I really wasn't in shape to do this sort of a run, and I was about ready to fall over after 16 miles, so forcing myself the rest of the way on nothing but spirit kind of led to my body complaining a bit; but I expect it'll heal up before too long. That's another thing, I've had back pain for several years now (pretty much since a friend decided it would be a great idea to jump on my back with alot of force) that just kicks in whenever I hold good posture for too long (it's usually pretty tired after iai, and from when I did kendo it would do it too), so I think it's just that problem that was exaggerated a bit with the run, not any new damage.

So if you’re out to build muscle, it’s really not better to cool down jog? (I couldn’t really jog after this, but I did hobble a few blocks home before I collapsed). So if I were to start training for a marathon, I’d obviously need to up my capabilities, as they’re a bit over 6 mi too short at the moment, would it be better to do cool down jogs afterward, or not? (Of course I do know that training for a marathon would be better done starting with smaller increments that wouldn’t wipe me out for so long afterwards). Sorry this has been such a lock post, I probably ought to work on being more concise… Thanks a lot for the feedback!

[Discus]

Good food and plenty of sleep. The best recovery regime by far.

If you don't have a ton of ice on hand I find cold water showers just as good. Alternating hot and cold in the shower even better. And if you have a sento nearby, hot bath, cold shower, sauna, cold shower, hot bath, cold shower, shiatsu. Heaven!

b

[ForumMasta]

One entire, full day of rest. Sempai wont let me train two days in a row except for special ocassions (seminars and the like) because your body needs a rest day in between, even if it's just jodo or something light.

[RussellPG]

Irresponsible, yes, but eventually I want to train for a marathon (probably to take next summer) and I kind of wanted to see what my starting point was.

Absolutely irresponsible. 20 miles is a long training run near the end of your buildup to a marathon, not a starting point. There's a good reason you're sore. Looking for a quick way out of it is not exactly smart, either.

If you're new to marathon running, a good starting point is the Boston marathon website. They've got several good training programs for various levels of runner. But even the beginner one starts from running 35-40 miles weekly. Get yourself to the point where you are logging that kind of mileage from running almost every day, and then start training for marathon. Jumping right in like that is a good way to permanently damage yourself.

Start listening to your body if you want to be doing anything active as you get older. You've only got one set of knees and it sounds like you're well on your way to trashing them.

[Sydrothcoathy]

Sort of agree with Neil on this but...

And there is a but.

At the end of the day it is his body and if he wants to push it hard (or even beyond) then that is up to him. I am sure he is well aware that nothing lasts forever and there is always a price to pay. If he wants to do 20 miles like this and is prepared to pay the price in later years then let him.

The plus side is that he, unlike us, now knows what it feels like to have done this. At the end of his life he will have an experience we will not have. We may make our bodies eke out a bit further but who knows what our futures bring. The last 20 years of life could be a waste and huge pools of drool on the pillow.

If there is some kind of afterlife we cannot take our bodies with us, but we may be able to take our experiences.

Live life - don't be scared of it.

[lLianneForbess]

Well, my training plan wouldn't include going that far regularly, I'd start smaller and be gradual, I just kind of wanted to know what I was capable of at this point. 35-40 miles weekly to train for a 26 mile run? Seems a bit overkill unless you're really trying to win the race (plenty of people are only trying to finish, I'd be with that group). I'm not sure where I heard it, but I heard that marathon level runners don't train by going the full distances every week, becuase that trashes your body, but if you've been to the boston marathon site, and thats what the stuff said, then I guess I'm quite wrong. Although, even the runners I know who do the 100-120 mile races (they don't run the whole distance) have only ever ran just under 40 miles. and if thats what you're supposed to do weekly, that doesn't seem right. One of the people I talked to did 18 marthons and 10 ultra marathons, and the farthest he ever ran was 38 miles, as part of a 50 mile race. On a side note: did you guys hear about the kid who's going to run 200 miles for charity in California? Or atleast I think it was California. That's just crazy. Was he going to run the entire thing? Oh, and my knees are just fine now that its been 48 hours, just a little soreness left is all, so I doubt I damaged them. Really I think it was the uneven surface of the snow/ice clumps on the trail that irritated them so much. In conclusion: I seemed to have failed at the whole 'working on being more concise' thing...

[juyrett]

...35-40 miles weekly to train for a 26 mile run? Seems a bit overkill unless you're really trying to win the race (plenty of people are only trying to finish, I'd be with that group). ...

That distance per week is not overkill, you will only do anywhere from 3 to 6 miles per day on a normal schedule and then squeeze in a long run once a week. A day of rest and ZERO running is one of the most important parts of those training schedules too. You need to find a schedule for training that builds up gradually and then tapers off at the end. The reason for those schedules are not so you can win. They are so you are fit enough that you can finish without hurting yourself (too much). The real marathon winners aren't just doing distance running with their weekly mileage. They are doing different types of hill workouts, strides, and a variety of other types of running besides just normal distance running. Even with running on a schedule that seems like overkill to you, I still wasn't prepared enough when I ran the Boston Marathon to finish without some serious health issues. Some people aren't meant to run that far, but we deny it and try anyway. I just wanted to finish the race like you, but if you don't prepare correctly it is going to suck when you knees hurt for years after. Mine are finally starting to feel better after my last marathon and that was 4 years ago and I am sure that they are not 100% healed either. That 20 mile run you did is something you only do once or twice near the end of the training program before starting to taper off your mileage. Don't be too eager or you are gonna feel it when your body complains.

[AlexClips]

It wasn't miles per week it was a single run from the sound of it.
My advice is twofold:
1. Ice and stretching.
2. Google a cure for stupidity ;-) and take it.
Yes it's your body, but remember that it treats you about the way it you treat it. 20mi run is not a bad thing... I >used< to do that weekends myself when I was younger. It's fairly typical for marathon training to have a long run in each week's training.
What was 'stupid' was doing this after 'not running for a while' If you are
getting started running again it's not the right time to put in the longest run you've ever done. I think you might want to pick up some books on running as training and look at how it ought to be done. Maybe also look at:
http://www.runinjuryfree.com/
Jeff Galloway provided me with a pile of nice advice (in print not in person) during my running years).

[Roamsaffots]

35-40 miles weekly to train for a 26 mile run? Seems a bit overkill unless you're really trying to win the race

That's the sum of all your training runs. Here's the Rookie Program suggested on the Boston Marathon website. This starts 16 weeks out and presumes you're already putting in the miles. Note week 16 (actually the 16th week before the race):

Monday (Rest Day) 0-3 miles
Tuesday (Intervals) 6-10 miles including 2 x (3 x 800m) @ 10K pace, 90 seconds recovery, 5 minutes recovery between sets.
Wednesday (Distance) 4-6 miles
Thursday (Tempo) 4-6 miles
Friday (Distance) 7-8 miles
Saturday (Distance) 5-6 miles
Sunday (Long) 12-14 miles steady, easy paced
Total: 40-55 miles

Note the training mix of shorter runs, tempo runs, intervals and a long run. This is typical marathon training.

[TimoDass]

Oh, my mistake. I thought you had meant 35 to 40 miles in one run. Yeah, that sounds much more reasonable. I'll have to do some research on the right plan for me. Do you think the start of this summer is too late to start preparing for a marathon to be taken the following summer? And update: I'm pretty much back to normal now, so it didn't seem to kill me that badly. And thanks for the exmple, Neil.

[Ebjjrxrd]

While I never got to do a full marathon, when I was running regularly I did in a year five half marathons three 5k and one or two 10k.
I think that a couple or three months is enough to train for a marathon if you can do twenty now (of course the next six are the hard ones). Four months won't kill you because the regular regimen calls for a couple 5k and 10k races as part of the training.
If you are training for the marathon it is often suggested that you not go more than 20 in training because if you do the whole thing beforehand it is easy not to get to the starting line on race day because you tell yourself "I've already done it".
The absolute hardest part is getting to the starting line.
Kind of like kendo.

[steansathtpos]

I've run a marathon after 2 months of training because I was dumb but really wanted to run it. I've done one after 4 months of training. I really really really don't advise training for less than four months. It is possible, but it really messed me up.

[electmobile]

'Bengay'

Wow that would almost belong to another thread...