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Old 10-21-2005, 07:00 AM   #1
Ebjjrxrd

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AlexM - sounds like you micht have been lifting your head before/during your strike - 99% of the time that sort of incident you described is caused by 'rubberneck-syndrome'.

Gill - totally agree about more tsuki practise needed during waza training (as far as beginners etc are concerned). I am happy to practise tsuki with anyone during waza training. The issue that I have with tsuki use in keiko is that if someone wants to use tsuki, they have to be prepared to receive it also (often with interest). A competent kendoka should be able to counter an inept tsuki strike in much the same manner as any other badly executed strike, however imho, someone that does not know how to receive a tsuki is more likely to get into problems taking a tsuki in keiko.
In that respect, beginners are probably better advised not to try tsuki on kendoka of their own level and to ask permission before trying it on their seniors.
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Old 10-27-2005, 07:00 AM   #2
Inonanialry

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Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
Under no circoumstances practice Tsuki on someone who is non-Yudansha. It's only in ZNKR regualtion that Tsuki is not allowed for high school students or any one younger. When you consider in Japan, most high school Kendoka are Nidan, then you'll see it's not about the rank, but rather the growth and safety for the teenagers.

The concept of Tsuki is fundamental to all. Because the shinai is not a sword, it poses less threat to your opponent. But most of the time you stay in Chudan-no-Kamae, as the tip of your shinai will be pointing against your opponent's throat (Tsuki). When you cut and show Zanshin, at the end your shinai always goes back to Chudan. Same reason-- to keep your opponent further away from you.

Hence Tsuki is an important technique worth studying. Especially when Seme comes in place. Eg, Seme-->Men.

Back in to times when I go Jikeiko with some high grades. Whenever I get closer from Issoku-Itto, just expect plenty of Tsuki. Since they always keep their center well, there is no chance for me to strike back (Tsuki, Men or anything... Ended up backing to the wall). So I don't understand why Tsuki will be dangerous. If you are at the right posture, you can perform any of the Oji-waza. Even an Ikkyu student knows that from Kendo Kata #3.

There used to be a Shodan Korean (for 10 year+) who tsuki me real hard. There is another Shodan Korean who tsuki me real hard but missed on my collar bone (what's that called...?). I "revenged" the next class and pay him back with a pretty straight one.

A few weeks ago when I was in Hong Kong there was this local Godan+ militant (yeah, militants are everywhere) losing a few Gyaku-do from me. Then he did a couple of tsuki (...with rage). All missed. In the last one, the shinai tip was caught in the "hole" between my Men wing and the throat guard. Lol.

When a target is opened why can you go for it? Can you imagine some Naginata-ka who keeps whacking your shin pads going, "So you want to cut my shins too? Wait till you are 3rd dan!! Now, take more of my Sune!"??

Speaking of the most dangerous cuts... I guess you should first ban Do, then Men. Today I got massive whacks in my ribs TWICE during Do-kihon!! I almost fell on the ground. Before Xmas in a Kirikaeshi session, a beginner smite a Yokomen on my right ear(lesson: always receive with a shinai properly, even if that beginner was not cutting the right place). And I did fall to the ground that time, thinking that my eardrum was broken. (Then got back to consciousness after 30 sec on the floor)

(Enough complain. My ribs still hurts. Ouch.)
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Old 11-03-2005, 07:00 AM   #3
DevaRextusidis

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The purpose of picking up a sword is to cut. It doesn't matter where you cut, wherther it is to the top, bottom or the sides.

The actions are all the same. I believe the level of perfection of your Men cuts are the same as those of your Tsuki. It's like, if you can do a couple of Men cuts, it wouldn't be difficult to cut Kote, etc.

Same for suburi. One Senpai reminds me that for Suburi you are not just swinging your arms, but you should also try reaching as far as you can with the tip of your sword. This is the principle concept of a Tsuki, so as Men, Kote, Do.

Don't forget that Suburi is not just Shomen. You can also have them at Kote and Do height.

One dojo I went to emphasize heavily on relaxing during Suburi. So instead of stopping at the Men level all the time, they only do Oki-suburi, which is a full swing from sword touching your back to sword 1 inch above floor. The more you do, the more your shoulders and arms will relax. When you get to 500 times or so you will really concentrate on using your hips...

Just some thoughts. I still don't agree with restricting Tsuki.
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Old 11-06-2005, 07:00 AM   #4
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I remember some tsuki in myy beginner practice w/out bogu. We did some tsuki on someone else's shinai (someone put a shinai vertically and you just have to hiconcentrate and hit where the throat should be)... I guess that if beginner practice that more often the result in bogu wouldn't be too dangerous...
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Old 11-14-2005, 07:00 AM   #5
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Sleepless and browsing so ....

I think its not only fundamental to kendo to learn to tsuki, but you must also be tsuki'ed ...... lack of people doing this to you will surely create a false sense of security in your kamae - for want of a better description - an "empty and obvious hole." One day you will come up against someone who is very good at tsuki and they will keep hitting you ... and you'll be like "why do they hit me no matter what I do" yada yada etc etc, maybe even "they dont like me and are evil [whatever!]" .. its possible.. but maybe its just that "empty and obvious hole" again.

One method of practising tsuki in jigeiko is discuss it with your partner prior to practise - yay or nay, katate or morote etc etc. There are a few people I practise with where tsuki is actively practised ... if an attempt isn't made i'm surprised!

If someone hits you and you dont like it then add some drama ... give it the 2 minute rest and the head between the knees.. they wont do it again!! [hopefully]

One japanese godan here in london is v.good at tsuki. His teacher in japan is famous for it.... he's teaching me .... watch out JAKOB!

p.s. I am not condoning irrational violence! [or rational for that matter]

Argh, its 3:43am ...
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Old 11-17-2005, 07:00 AM   #6
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Tsuki might be the 'simplest' technique, but as with anything in kendo: If it's simple, it's very difficult!.
(I mean, to cut men, all we have to do is to raise and lower our arms, while taking a step forward...sounds easy, right?).
Tsuki involves controlling the center, creating an opening and then thrust, while maintaining posture and center and showing zanshin. (If we hit the rather small target that is).
Having said that, I do think that it should be showed and practiced under controlled circumstances relativly early on.
There's a lot of fear and mystery about this technique going around (Just look at the hiki-tsuki thread!), which makes people extremly hungry for information. (Anything 'hidden' will always attract attention).
I'll use it against jodan and once in a blue moon when fighting in chudan (against chudan)...and then it's usually as a nidan waza.
I've recieved my fair share of them, but then I also fight in jodan .

Jakob
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Old 12-12-2005, 07:00 AM   #7
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scbang,

As a courtesy you should always ask to do Tsuki on someone. I'll let you read my previous post on what I believe ideal conditions for practicing Tsuiki are. I would also add one more thing to that... do it after practice is officially over. You can focus better on what you are doing and can have the complete attention of your sensei to monitor and correct your technique. Remember, Tsuki is dangerous to use so you want to create an environment that minimizes these risks as much as possible.

Under no circoumstances practice Tsuki on someone who is non-Yudansha. They have enough to worry about already.

Now with regard to how you feel about using Tsuki... The feeling you have is natural and a byproduct of both factors. Never, ever forget that feeling. It will help to in the long run in determining when to use it and when not to use it.

You'll find out eventually that while Tsuki is a nice to have in your arsenal, you'll only use it more for special circumstances more than anything else.

A Kenshi can go through their entire career without ever learning to use Tsuki, but can never be much of a Kenshi if they don't master their basic fundamentals (refer to my previous post) and learning different wazas.

Hope this helps...

MKK
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Old 12-31-2005, 07:00 AM   #8
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sorry...pressed the wrong button...

but as I was saying:

I was initially against the idea of doing tsuki. In my dojo in Perth no one does tsuki unless you really don't like the person(or its against jodan in shiai). In fact in our last tournament, because it was mixed grades, tsuki was banned.

But over here in Malaysia its used often. I got a nice rude awakining on my first training back during jigeiko when my partner tsukied me. Luckily he tried it one handed and I held my ground, cuz when he hit the tsuki the shinai went flying out of his hands...heh

Now I use tsuki once in a while but mainly as a initial attack followed by Men or Kote.etc.

I agree its a dangerous technique but if practiced properly it should be like any other waza.

MENG
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:00 AM   #9
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I know my sensei hasn't given me approval to do tsuki yet so I won't. Of course I am super new and know that all too well. However, at least with me, even after my sensei says it's okay, my own personal concern for the safety of others will prevent me from using it unless I feel really sure of it. So I think that if the individual is mature enough to be honest with their own abilities, then they can decide when is a good time. Although it is nice to get sensei's mutual approval so as not to cause a ruckus in the dojo.
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:00 AM   #10
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I'll have to respond here.

Ares2907: your last post states that somebody who cannot do Tsuki cannot do a MEN?! Not true. Learning Tsuki (which i am all for it!) teaches you how to strike "small waza" efficiently as M.K. Kawaii posted earlier. it also teaches concepts related to control of centre, control of kamae, etc..

BUT, it its not the basis for hitting a basic (big) men. All basic strikes (big) stem from this one action. Tsuki comes into play when the kendoka begins learning "small waza" and is a basis for performing that waza efficiently.

So, when should a kendoka add Tsuki to their basics? After they begin learning "small waza", IMO.
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Old 01-31-2006, 07:00 AM   #11
retrahdggd

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Hmmnnn...I was never
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:00 AM   #12
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well....wat u say is true....but not all those who do tsuki r above 3-dan....i have seen some people below 3-dan who can do a pretty smooth tsuki without injuring others.....so maybe this decision of doing tsuki should lie with the individual.....he or she should know whether he or she is strong enough in their own basics in order to do tsuki.......
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Old 03-13-2006, 07:00 AM   #13
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imnsho a kenshi could go through their entire career without learning to use tsuki, but they'd be a fundamentally flawed kenshi. Fundamentals are (of course) the basis from which all things in kendo spring. Tsuki is a part of those fundamentals. I do not believe that is supposed to be taboo until a certain rank. In keiko, perhaps, but I believe that beginners should learn this technique along with the rest of their basics.
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Old 03-16-2006, 07:00 AM   #14
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Interesting thread. I personally in my yearful of kendo have not given or recieved tsuki. I've seen it seldom done in our dojo.

However; at practice last Sunday... My naginata fellow and I were discussing Things to Do When You are Both In Jodan and he mentioned tsuki. Which I knew about but I'm not about to use against him. Not yet anyways.
But it is funny because soon after showing me this he decided to go join in jigeiko I noticed that he was quite up for using tsuki on everybody. I think that at least everyone who he went against got it at least once.
I of course was paying most attention to him to see how they deal with naginata and I heard from some other group:
"Was that tskui?" -laughing
"Uh... yeah."-kinda playing it off.

so the lesson here about tsuki is:
Tsuki unto others as you would have them tsuki unto you.
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Old 03-18-2006, 07:00 AM   #15
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Isn't Tsuki the most basic technique of kendo??

I don't think it is really most dangerous when beginners use it..They can't really make it work...and also..a direct hit to the throath is just a "freak accident" it can happen to anyone , whatever the grade.
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Old 03-31-2006, 07:00 AM   #16
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One question if you don't use tsuki until your over 3rd dan how are you going to become competant at it.......after all practice makes perfect and surley even practicing tsuki with a partner can be dangerous. But is that not kendo, there are risks in every sport right, practitioner are aware that if your hitting someone with bamboo theres a chance you might get hurt. We are told not to do tsuki on anyone under 2nd dan and that kyu grades should never attempt it. I think dojo's should practice tsuki more with lower dan to ensure their competance in this technique.
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Old 04-07-2006, 07:00 AM   #17
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Kendo_Chick,

Tsuki is not a basic technique. If it were every beginner would learn to do Tsuiki first. When I refer to basic technique, I am referring to the techniques that will form the foundation upon which your Kendo waza will be built upon.

My concept of basic technique for a beginner is kamae, footwook and striking men. Everything else is built off of that foundation. Tsuki is nowhere in that equation. If it were, I would have taught that over 25 years ago when I started Kendo.

What your senseis are refering to, is that as a Kenshi progresses from striking big to striking small, at some point that Kenshi must think about striking efficiently. I can write a novel about this but I don't want bore you with unnecessary details. What it boils down to is that any movement in the tip, no matter how slight, results in a slower and inefficient strike.

I'm sure that you might have heard, "keep your tip still until you are ready to strike." One of the techniques on doing that is to have the Kenshi zero in on the Tsuki and at the last possible moment strike men. This concept is easier said than done. For me, it has only been recently that I have been able to truly understand what my senseis were really telling and it has improved my Kendo. I'm sure the same thing will happen to you when you do realize what your senseis were really teaching you (I hope it doesn't take as long as it did me ).

[Sigh] There I go on my soap box again

Anyway, bottomline... Tsuki is a technique in Kendo (and a very effective one when done properly), but it is not, in my book, a basic technique; one that I would want to teach a beginner. Hope this helps...

MKK
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Old 04-10-2006, 07:00 AM   #18
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I don't use tsuki very often except against jodan. But lately I started use tsuki as a way of opening opponents kamae and do nidan waza ( normally men or kote ).
Do I still need to ask for a permission for this?

One comment about tsuki: Not only it makes you nervous for missed ones but even the good ones are not very pleasant to receive. Is this becaus of its unpleasant feeling or we're just not used to it. ( Lord knows how many men I took and I know of no kakari geiko or Jigeko involving tsuki )

Your thoughts? SC
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Old 04-10-2006, 07:00 AM   #19
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it's not the technique. it's how you perform it.
i've personally received a lot of missing tsukis that landed on my neck/throat and i can still breathe.

and i've also seen 6th dans missing 4 tsukis straight and doing no harm.

kendo can be dangerous if you have a 'killing' attitude (see that poor kenshi up there whose rib and ear are being hammered every class) and just not by doing tsuki. think of it, most of the body is not covered by the armour.
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Old 04-26-2006, 07:00 AM   #20
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It amazes me how fast high ranking (eg. Godan ++) can regain a strong center. I was sparring with my Sensei here in Malaysia and every time I broke center and went in for the attack I would find myself impaled on his shinai.

When I watch him fight against others I can see how fast he regains a strong chudan. Knock his shinai aside and he'll zip it back into your tsuki. Actually, looking at it now...I also realize that one of the major faults I/we have is that breaking center and the strike are two movements not one. Meaning it is easier to read then attack....hmmnnn...must make note of this...

I also like watching him do a proper tsuki attack, he seems to just slide it over, using the opponent's shinai as a balancing point, then BAM!

So what BTW is a good method to do tsuki?
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