[Promalada]

Call me old fashioned or hard headded, but I have a few qualms about Kendo today. One of them is the use of Tsuki by people who are clearly not qualified to do it! Especially, by people who are not even Yudansha!

In fact, I have problems with people who are 3-dan and below using it. People may think that I'm being unreasonable or that I maybe making much ado about nothing, but the fact remains that Tsuki is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo.

If done improperly, it can seriously HURT or even KILL someone!

Back when I was trainning and making my way up the ranks the thought of anyone below 4-dan doing tsuki was out of the question. It was strongly discouraged for Kenshi to attempt to do a Tsuki. But now times have changed and some Kenshi do it because they saw someone do it and it looked "cool."

All I can say is, how cool would it look if someone got hurt recieving a Tsuki... or worse... that person died? There was a reason why learning Tsuki was discouraged until you were at least 4-dan or higher.

It may look simple but, it requires a tremendous amount of control, confidence in one's kamae, and one's skill as a Kenshi.

When done properly it is an effective waza, but when done improperly it will cause more than just a bruise.

I've ranted on too long on this. But, this is what think and how I feel about this issue.

MKK

[abishiots]

well....wat u say is true....but not all those who do tsuki r above 3-dan....i have seen some people below 3-dan who can do a pretty smooth tsuki without injuring others.....so maybe this decision of doing tsuki should lie with the individual.....he or she should know whether he or she is strong enough in their own basics in order to do tsuki.......

[Noxassope]

Yes M.K. Kawai i agree too with you.

[retrahdggd]

Hmmnnn...I was never

[RG3rGWcA]

sorry...pressed the wrong button...

but as I was saying:

I was initially against the idea of doing tsuki. In my dojo in Perth no one does tsuki unless you really don't like the person(or its against jodan in shiai). In fact in our last tournament, because it was mixed grades, tsuki was banned.

But over here in Malaysia its used often. I got a nice rude awakining on my first training back during jigeiko when my partner tsukied me. Luckily he tried it one handed and I held my ground, cuz when he hit the tsuki the shinai went flying out of his hands...heh

Now I use tsuki once in a while but mainly as a initial attack followed by Men or Kote.etc.

I agree its a dangerous technique but if practiced properly it should be like any other waza.

MENG

[NowFloabDow]

I know my sensei hasn't given me approval to do tsuki yet so I won't. Of course I am super new and know that all too well. However, at least with me, even after my sensei says it's okay, my own personal concern for the safety of others will prevent me from using it unless I feel really sure of it. So I think that if the individual is mature enough to be honest with their own abilities, then they can decide when is a good time. Although it is nice to get sensei's mutual approval so as not to cause a ruckus in the dojo.

[Cabinanteerip]

One question if you don't use tsuki until your over 3rd dan how are you going to become competant at it.......after all practice makes perfect and surley even practicing tsuki with a partner can be dangerous. But is that not kendo, there are risks in every sport right, practitioner are aware that if your hitting someone with bamboo theres a chance you might get hurt. We are told not to do tsuki on anyone under 2nd dan and that kyu grades should never attempt it. I think dojo's should practice tsuki more with lower dan to ensure their competance in this technique.

[nonDosearrany]

I like doing tsuki despite my low rank and I want to keep practicing it when playing kendo.

I personally think the danger associated with that waza is a bit exaggerated (fast foward to next week when there's an announcement of my death from tsuki on the boards). I said this in another thread where tsuki was discussed but here it goes again: I have never been injured by tsuki in jikeiko or shiai (despite them being thrown by mostly by people well under 3rd dan), I get hurt by tsuki in kihon when I actually have to receive the hit (thus dislocating my jaw, bruising my throat, etc.).

It's been my (limited) experience that tsuki is just so hard to get (all that aite must do is block only slightly to the side) that if someone manages to get it it's usually because their competent enough to control it. Beginners (I should probably put myself in this category) that try tsuki usually don't go anywhere (we don't reach the target, the hit is blocked, even if it gets through we're so surprised that we forget about zanshin, etc.) so the risk of injury is limited (and you can just oji waza after that anyway). As long as you're not trying to kill the opponent (or angry because of something) the hit really shouldn't be terribly hard, no?

One last point, kendo is a fairly dangerous sport or martial art (whichever you prefer) no matter what (it's not skydiving but that's fine by me). My scarriest moment came when I went for a straight "men" on someone and they tried to do the same thing but started late. I took his shinai straight on the throat (behind the guard), my head snapped back and I had to stop right there (I did get the hit though ). If he had hit a few centimeters to the left he would have landed on my trachia and it could have been much worse than it was. This is just to say that injuries to the throat would probably still happen if tsuki were banned forever (Heaven forbid).

As for the broader implications of banning certain waza for certain rankings I say BOLLOCKS! (I love that expression! ) Age groups I could understand (and even then it might get out of hand. . .) but not rankings. My understanding is that you either do kendo or you don't. I don't believe in doing half-kendo (well mine is bad but not that bad). Besides, how am I supposed to get better at something if I don't practice it? By "not" doing it?

[estuapped]

I suppose its up to the individual Dojo to decide when people are or are not to do tsuki. Delaying it till >3rd Dan is fine, but teaching it earlier helps people learn the basics more quicky, IMO.

It teaches control, how to obtain centre, and is the basis for "small waza". As far as actually attacking with it in geiko, no, not everyone should just go out and do it. But, once a kendoka is comfortable with their kamae, has enough control and sense of mind to not just thrust wildly, they should go for it. WITH the permission of their partener of course.

Pretty subjective topic tsuki is!

[Fededorbprago]

Well, if tsuki is dangerous when it's done badly (when the shinai slides on the side to enter the men), we could change the men construction... a men that will be safer to do tsuki on...

It's true that it would be stupid to nearly die during a kendo practice because a beginner did tsuki on you... (well anyway you could die when crossing a street). I think we should practice tsuki during kihon to learn it correctly and then add it in keiko later when you mastered it. Something like that... I did some great tsuki in kihon last practice (don't know why but doing tsuki on that partner [t-a] feels easier to do than on other people ?_?), but I don't really feel confortable to do some in keiko. I'm still 2nd kyu and a 14-year-old girl... There's no seperate classes in our dojo (not enough instructors) so all the underage (well 2 of us) the dan and kyu people practice tsuki once in a while...

[nitivearchit]

I was very wary of tsuki for years, as I have been injured twice by it - the first time got me on the upper arm, and I had a massive bruise for weeks, the second time was on the collar bone, and I was screaming blue murder - it was extremely painful. Both times the person who tsukied me were 5th Dan.

I think tsuki should be practiced more in kihon so that people can learn how to do it properly. The reason people get injured is because people are trying to impale them on the end of their shinai. Tsuki should have te-no-uchi like everything else.

I now practice tsuki when I see the opportunity, and have actually landed some nice ones - but I am still very wary - but that is what makes me miss! If I am worried about making the strike I miss - if I just go for it - it's fine

Gill

[Ebjjrxrd]

AlexM - sounds like you micht have been lifting your head before/during your strike - 99% of the time that sort of incident you described is caused by 'rubberneck-syndrome'.

Gill - totally agree about more tsuki practise needed during waza training (as far as beginners etc are concerned). I am happy to practise tsuki with anyone during waza training. The issue that I have with tsuki use in keiko is that if someone wants to use tsuki, they have to be prepared to receive it also (often with interest). A competent kendoka should be able to counter an inept tsuki strike in much the same manner as any other badly executed strike, however imho, someone that does not know how to receive a tsuki is more likely to get into problems taking a tsuki in keiko.
In that respect, beginners are probably better advised not to try tsuki on kendoka of their own level and to ask permission before trying it on their seniors.

[Fertionbratte]

I agree that it is a dangerous technique but it is *v.important* to learn both how to do it and receive it. I agree that more time should be spent practising tsuki as kihon with all grades. I also think yudansha should give permission for their aite to use it on them in jigeiko, based on the sempai's knowledge of their kohai's ability, not whether they have a dan grade.

Back when I was training and making my way up the ranks, I too was discouraged from doing tsuki. The end result of that is now my tsuki is very poor. Whenever Japanese 4-dans visit our club I am embarassed by my poor technique as compared to theirs.

So yes MKKawai, I hearby call you both "old-fashioned" and "hard-headded" (sic).

b

[Jourgenz]

I'm not saying that we should ban Tsuki (although I won't be sad if it were ). I'm just saying that there should be restrictions on using it.

My concern is out of safety for all Kenshi. I would expect a person with the rank of 4 Dan to know the hazards of using Tsuki better than someone who is Shodan. I wouldn't expect a non-Yudansha Kenshi to fully understand this because their first and foremost thing for them to focus on is improving their basic skills and wazas.

Tsuki when done properly is one of the most effective wazas a Kenshi can have in their arsenal. But, it is dangerous to use. To take joy in using Tsuki is IMHO not taking seriously the danger associated with it. Failure to recognize this point will lead to excessive use of it and create more opportunity for injury to occur. This IMHO is showing disrespect and a disregard for the safety and well being of your fellow Kenshi.

Yes, Kendo like any martial art is fairly dangerous. But, there is a huge difference between getting a hard hit to the Kote vs a hard thrust to the Tsuki. One will leave a nice big fat bruise and the other can cause more that just a bruise -- it can cause death.

[Sigh] There I go ranting and raving again.

MKK

[duncanalisstmp]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai

My concern is out of safety for all Kenshi. I would expect a person with the rank of 4 Dan to know the hazards of using Tsuki better than someone who is Shodan. I wouldn't expect a non-Yudansha Kenshi to fully understand this because their first and foremost thing for them to focus on is improving their basic skills and wazas.
MKK Really? I find that tsuki looks scarriest for rank beginners. They see people going for the other person's throat knowing full well that the armor isn't the best protection in the world. I know that's what I thought when seeing for the first times. It frightened me a bit (you must understand that a year or two previous a hockey player almost died on the ice during an NHL game in Montréal when he was hit in the throat with a puck: he survived only because they had doctors and an ambulance right there and then). Then, when I had received a few and dished a few out, I understood that it really isn't so dangerous. I honestly don't think that you need to be a 4th dan to understand that it's risky and you need control to execute it properly (I don't need a degree in sports medicine to know that getting hit with bamboo will leave a bruise either. . . It's just common sense). The hazards appear worse for beginners.

As for not getting joy out of a good tsuki. . . Can't agree with that at all. It's one of the toughest moves to pull off, you should be happy when you get it. I even feel a bit happy for my opponent when I receive it because I know that he or she just nailed me. Because one takes joy from something doesn't imply a lack of respect for the adversary or a lack of seriousness. In fact, one could argue that it is better to perform tsuki when in a "joyfull" mood rather than when angry.

Ares - You got me. I flinch and bring my head up when I attack. You should have seen my neck two weeks ago, I had a collar of red welts from an adversary who would simply stick his shinai on my throat whenever I went for men. . . I did 20-25 minutes straight of jikeiko with him.

[Zvssxstw]

Isn't Tsuki the most basic technique of kendo??

I don't think it is really most dangerous when beginners use it..They can't really make it work...and also..a direct hit to the throath is just a "freak accident" it can happen to anyone , whatever the grade.

[itsmycock]

Kendokamax,

Unfortunately, Tsuki is not the most basic technique in Kendo. Although one would think that it should be. The fact of the matter is that it is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo. That's why it was strongly discouraged for most Kenshi below 4-Dan, especially those who weren't Yudansha. Well, that was then...

What you posted clearly highlighted one of the points I was trying to get at. If you factor in all the bad habits that beginners have, such as not keeping their heads down when they go in to hit, using too much strength, etc. with someone coming in with Tsuki, what do you get? A disaster waiting to happen.

As a sensei myself I would not want to put my Kenshi in harms way by unnecessarily having them divert their attention from mastering a good kamae, footwork, and hitting a solid kote, men, and do. I hope this addressed your post? I'm trying not to write a novel here

AlexM,

There is a big difference between getting a joy in achieving something and just enjoying doing something just for the thrill of it.

I get a "joy" out of hitting a good kote, men, or do. That doesn't mean that I enjoy hitting kote, men, or do. My focus at my level isn't about having fun in hitting someone, but more on what techniques I have to beat my opponent. Joy to me is measured in terms of the intensity of the fight between me and my opponent. Also, another thing that gives me joy is seeing my students achieve their personal goals and succeed in becoming better Kenshi. But, I digress...

From where I sit it looks like you get a few shots in -- great. But, do you really understand the potential consquence of your actions? I don't see that from you at this time.

Doing Tsuki or any strike for that matter just does not encompass whether you can do it or receive it. It is also about putting yourself in your opponents position and determining whether that person will create a situation that would spell disaster. It's about looking at your fellow Kenshi and recognizing that there may be some who can receive Tsuki and the rest can not. Kenshi with the same rank does not mean that they have the same skill. In a dynamic situation, conditions do exist that would put a Kenshi at risk of being seriously harmed by a Tsuki. I've seen it from my POV. Have you? If you have, you would not be so quick to trivialize the safety issue.

MKK

[resegooredo]

I honestly belief the reason tsuki is so dangerous is because of this stigma attached to it, if we use more in kihon it will become as familiar as a men cut. As for the injuries i've taken a few bad tsuki's but I've had more bruises from the classic (arm pit) do cuts and i've been knocked out twice by heavy handed cromagnum men..... but thats kendo.

[extessarere]

I remember some tsuki in myy beginner practice w/out bogu. We did some tsuki on someone else's shinai (someone put a shinai vertically and you just have to hiconcentrate and hit where the throat should be)... I guess that if beginner practice that more often the result in bogu wouldn't be too dangerous...

[Dvjkefdw]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai

Unfortunately, Tsuki is not the most basic technique in Kendo. Although one would think that it should be. The fact of the matter is that it is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo. That's why it was strongly discouraged for most Kenshi below 4-Dan, especially those who weren't Yudansha. Well, that was then...
I believe this is not correct. what can be more basic then doing a lunging step (proper footwork) and not moving your shinai? I believe that this thread is focusing too much on using tsuki as a point in kendo.

Several sensei have told me that in order to understand all the other strikes in Kendo, you must first understand the tsuki strike. If everything in Kendo is based from your center, how can tsuki not be the most basic?