[RuttyUttepe]

Hyaku,

I've heard stories that most shinai and bogu are not really japanese made. They just produce it on korea or china and take it to japan to stamp that cute little label on them, but do you mean it's for real?

It seems that only 'madake' bamboo shinai and tezashi bogu are completely japanese, is it so?

Alex Polli

[ljq0AYOV]

Hi folks,

Although I cannot afford a carbon one yet, it's still interesting to know about it. Keep up with the technology.

I want to add another question. Apart from the manufacturing country (Japan>Korea>Taiwan>China, etc.), what constitute the quality of a shinai? I heard of the word "balance" a few times. Can someone explain more...?

Thank you with bowing _\O/_

[Cricequorie]

damocles>
Everybody knoes that the bamboo shinai(for men's not for kids) is more heavy than a "hasegawa" carbon shinai.
You say that the material is differrent.I'm not talking about the parts of the shinai.I'm talking about the material.Everybody can
bulild him self a carbon shinai if hi has the parts.But if he want's to build a bamboo shinai and he has the parts it is more difficult and expensive.And one good bamboo shinai cost more than 450$.

[BruceCroucshs]

Alex,

I have also be told that the Carbon shinai are not very good for the kendoka who is performing the cut. As they transmit the impact from the cut straight down the arm in to the elbow, giving the kendoka tennis elbow.

Where as the Bamboo shinai is a lot better at absorbing the impact and preventing the same problems.

[reawnvam]

Well, I will voice the opinion of the receiving end. i hate carbon sinai, because:
1) they look horrible
2) they sound horrible
3) they sting the receiving end during kote
4) they bend too much
5) they mark my do
Ok, the last point doesn't bother me too much givne the curent state of my bogu, but it will when buy a new one.

[SAUNDERSAN]

Originally posted by ben
No-one has mentioned what I feel is the main disadvantage with carbonfibre shinais, and that is the wrist and elbow soreness from constant use.

B That'll teach me not to check over the page! As soon as I posted I saw the previous post had already mentioned this point

Oh well. At least it shows I'm not the only one to suffer Hasegawa-Elbow!

[insightmike]

Hi all,

I am working and living at Shanghai. There are a lot of manufacturing factories here making all kinds of product including kendo related products. People from Japan , Korea and Taiwan set up their factories here for the production of martial art product. The consumption of kendo product is very very low here in China. So you can say they export everything to countries worldwide.

However , it's the philosophy of the owner of the factory which determine the quality of products. It's the boss who determine whether their worker should be well-trained for the skill of making bougu or not. It's the boss who determine whether they should have a strict Quality Control Policy. And the same to the choosing of the raw material.

IBM , Compaq & HP set up their factory here. But they will say it's made in china when they put the product in the market.

Here're my opinion in short :
1. Lying to people who buy product from them is absolutely
wrong (say "made in Japan " but actually from china).
2. It's the management people of the factory who determine the
quality of product. Not country
3. Even the product is final-assembled in Japan. Some or even
most parts may came from other country such as china.

[Prererularl]

Antonin i agree your opinion but only with 4)
I think that 1) and 2) are not very good explications.

1)The bamboo shinai is more heavy
2)It is more expensive
3)It has more difficult compoments than a "Hasegawa"

[geraint.faughn]

Hi Don,

no there are no other carbon shinai apart from Hasegawa. I am very interested to hear why you think think that Hasegawa is no good.

By the way, I intend to go and interview the president of the Hasegawa company for an article for the 3rd issue of Kendo World.

I am interested to know what people think of Hasegawa shinai.

Cheers.

[XYTommy]

I find the Carbon Shinai to be sort of floppy and not at all as firm as Take Shinai.
I have one standard CF and one Heavy Dobari (555g). The latter is less floppy due to its greater circumference.

[AlabamaBoyz]

Hi there,

actually, you can get the carbon shinai with oval grips.

I was interested to see comments about the carbon shinai being more flexible than bamboo. Tests have shown that bamboo is more shock absorbant than carbon, and therefore better for yourself and the joints in your arms, and your opponent, their joints, and their equipment...In fact, more than a few people in Japan are worried about the long term effects of being hit by the carbon shinai. Interestingly, these long term effects are also forcasted to be evident in the users of carbon shinai as well.

Still, I would rather be hit by a carbon shinai than by some of the shinai I have seen in countries where bamboo shinai are not readily available...

[giturbewan]

Damocles,
Of course, all this is a matter of personnal taste, I was stating why *I* don't like carbon shinai. Another poin I did not mention is that generaly speaking, I prefer the use of natural materials in clothing, construction, furniture, etc, and that it is therefore logical that take shinai appeal to me more.
As for the lack of tenuchi of some of my colleague, well, this is a problem plaguing most of us, I believe :-(
i am not sure I understand the argument about the number of bits in a shinaia and one being more difficult than the other to mount. mounting a shinai is a trivial exercise that any kendoka should be able to master in a mater of hours, no ?

Don_lubo : $450 for a shinai ? Ok, if yoou go for that sort of prices for a shinai, I undestand why you think carbon is cheaper in the long run ! Can I suggest that buying reasonable priced take shinai coul also solve the problem ? in the last 2 years, I must have spend around $100 for 3 shinai, and two of them are still in perfect condition. i just sand them and oil them regularily and they resist very well.
A.

[Feelundseenna]

Hi Don,

no there are no other carbon shinai apart from Hasegawa. I am very interested to hear why you think think that Hasegawa is no good.

By the way, I intend to go and interview the president of the Hasegawa company for an article for the 3rd issue of Kendo World.

I am interested to know what people think of Hasegawa shinai.

Cheers.

Durability is a good think but I'm not very fond of my Hasegawa -way too much flex! Just give me good old bamboo and I'll be just fine, and take the Hasegawa as a spare in case the other breaks.

[SoOW2LeA]

"As I mentioned earlier doesnt anyone spare a thought for the person on the receiving end?"

Most people I know, who use carbonfiber shinais hits way too hard.


Jakob

www.hizen.org

[teridbruse]

::sigh::

check out the weight specifications for carbon shinai at the hasegawa site. weights, i believe, are not inclusive of any fittings: sakigawa, tsukagawa, tsuba, et cetera...

http://www.hasegawakagaku.co.jp/eshinai.htm

and the specifications of shinai in general, fittings inclusive, in section 10b of the Japanese Sword arts FAQ.

http://www.ii.uib.no/~kjartan/swordfaq/section10.html

alternatively, if you can view japanese pages on your browser, the ZNKR has the specifications here:
http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/rule/hyou.html
second table from the bottom, last column.
bottom table is for nitto shiai

ALL shinai have to conform to these specs.

[legal-advicer]

Originally posted by Antonin
Damocles,
Of course, all this is a matter of personnal taste, I was stating why *I* don't like carbon shinai. ah... yeah. sorry 'bout that.

i am not sure I understand the argument about the number of bits in a shinaia and one being more difficult than the other to mount. mounting a shinai is a trivial exercise that any kendoka should be able to master in a mater of hours, no ? yep. I don't understand either. don_lubo pretty much lost me with that... I was referring to mounts... I don't know what he was referring to...

[mygalinasoo]

Carbon shinai's should never be used by beginners. Because it will not break when they hit incorrectly it helps reinforce poor strikes that become bad habits in the future. In practice bambo shinai will break if the front of the men is struck at a shallow angle. This is a common problem for adult beginners. The economics of poor strikes quickly help these students work on fixing their waza. With carbon the continue for years making crappy slaps at the men with little tennouchi for years. As with most kendoist I have a carbon (my second), but I do not use it any longer unless I am out of bambo shinai. If you find that you are breaking bambo shinai often it may be time to evaluate your strike for fundamental problems

If it is unclear from the above rant, I do not like carbon shinais. With the numbers of "powerful" kendo players my wrist are covered in blue.

[Immampdah]

No-one has mentioned what I feel is the main disadvantage with carbonfibre shinais, and that is the wrist and elbow soreness from constant use.

There's a kind of received wisdom about this that says it's due to the plastic transferring more of the shock to the kendoka's arms than the bamboo, which absorbs it more. I don't know how you measure this scientifically but it sounds like a good hypothesis.

Apart from that I agree with most of the posts so far. They're great to have in your shinaibukuro as an emergency back-up. Personally I try and avoid using mine for prolonged periods of time. If I was rich I'd probably never use one!

B

[Daleman1984]

I watched some shinai being made at the Kyoto taikai last week and also had a play with some carbon ones. I must say I've never really been impressed with them and after wandering about finally went back and bought a handmade bamboo one. The balance and finish is brilliant and was well worth the money. Bamboo ones last me quite a while as I try not to hit too hard and I look after them. The problem is over here that you don't really get to see the good quality ones and have to take 'pot luck' when buying. I've had good and bad ones from both China and Taiwan at all sorts of prices, so next time I'm over in Japan I will make sure I don't forget to buy enough to last me until I go again!

Tim

[Chooriwrocafn]

Alex most the people in my opinion doesn't like the "hasegawa"
they prefere the good old bamboo shinai.