[Aniplinipsync]

It's just whenever it is mentioned in most Hollywood films it sounds like all just happily voted, then had a war with the "evil British". That's because history is written by the victors. It's much easier for people to imagine our patriots fighting for their freedom from the evil oppressors, than it is to imagine our local nobility pissed off because they were having to ship too much money back to England in the form of taxes. To bring the thread back around to its original post, it's exactly the same way that people are uncomfortable thinking of native americans such as Geronimo as other than vicious savages, given the fact that our ancestors constantly lied to them, took all their land, and almost wiped them all out.

[Vokbeelllicky]

An interesting factoid about American English vs. British English. It is generally thought that British English is the "older" version, but in fact American English contains many features of 15th and 16th century English now gone or uncommon in British English. Among these are words like "gotten" and "fall" (for the season), and the short "a" in "bath", "path", etc.

I think you have to remember which British or American English you are talking about. Arguments about archaic words still being used in America as a measure of the history of the language are a bit strange really. English has been spoken in Britain for a very long time, regardless of its form or regional variations, and a few words from the 16th Century don't really change that.

Besides Yorkshire English is easily the best from of English, and should be taught as a global standard.

[quack!]

That's because history is written by the victors. It's much easier for people to imagine our patriots fighting for their freedom from the evil oppressors, than it is to imagine our local nobility pissed off because they were having to ship too much money back to England in the form of taxes. To bring the thread back around to its original post, it's exactly the same way that people are uncomfortable thinking of native americans such as Geronimo as other than vicious savages, given the fact that our ancestors constantly lied to them, took all their land, and almost wiped them all out.

All the old "Westerns" had the "Injuns" as villians. At least films like "Dances with Wolves" started to show them as people.

Look at the history of Britain - we have been invaded/conquered/liberated (pick one) by, in no particular order: Romans/Angles/Celts/Saxons/Vikings/Normans who killed off most of the natives and claimed the land for themselves.
It's all a long time ago - the most recent in 1066AD - so it doesn't seem so bad. The systematic slaughter of Native Americans was only 150 years ago, so seems worse!

I am British - but who am I? Roman/Celt/Saxon/Vikings/Norman? All of the above?

But as I said earlier it all happened a long time ago so I don't need to feel guilty . . . . . .about that at least!

[NicolasOL]

All the old "Westerns" had the "Injuns" as villians. At least films like "Dances with Wolves" started to show them as people...

Actually, 1970 was a watershed year in American cinema for revisionist western films that presented Native Americans as people. I remember films like "Little Big Man", "Soldier Blue" and "A Man Called Horse" - all released that year. These and other films, years before "Dances With Wolves", gave me pause to think deeply about the human misery of that painfully sad period in our history. When the 71-day occupation of Wounded Knee at Pine Ridge Reservation occupied the news in the spring of 1973, I at least understood the context of it and why it happened.

We may not need feel guilty for atrocious acts committed so long ago in history but we certainly should be ashamed if we are guilty of ignorance.

[DagoIgnog]

Actually, 1970 was a watershed year in American cinema for revisionist western films that presented Native Americans as people. I remember films like "Little Big Man", "Soldier Blue" and "A Man Called Horse" - all released that year. These and other films, years before "Dances With Wolves", gave me pause to think deeply about the human misery of that painfully sad period in our history. When the 71-day occupation of Wounded Knee at Pine Ridge Reservation occupied the news in the spring of 1973, I at least understood the context of it and why it happened.

We may not need feel guilty for atrocious acts committed so long ago in history but we certainly should be ashamed if we are guilty of ignorance.

I have not seen "Soldier Blue" but had seen the others. Forgotten what good films they were (although the last time I saw them was about 20 years ago!)
until you mentioned them.

Uncomfortable truths are, well, uncomfortable . . .

All countries have at least part of their history that is, at the very least, embarrasing; and sometimes shameful. My father was very good at getting me to find out the truth of history, not just the "flag waving, look how good we are!" bit.

For example:

The British commanded by Wellington won the battle of Waterloo!! . . .

. . Err, no actually!
He just held onto a ridge until the Prussians turned up as promised. Without that promise he wouldn't have stopped there but would have carried on retreating towards Brussels . . . and probably beyond!
Of the "British" holding the ridge, about half were Dutch and German. Of the other half - half of them (about 25% total) were Scots or Irish!

Wellesley himself was born in Ireland!

Three sides to every story:

Yours, mine and the truth.

[SinyugiN]

But without the romantic viewpoint people like, say, Custer, Wallace, or Julius Caesar would just show up as psychotic killers who nowadays would be locked up... and where would that leave Hollywood?

[Mjxhnapi]

Don`t know Tim, either Hollywood might actual make something worth while to watch for a change or they would just sink even lower then they do know. Every country has some dark part within there history. Examps, UK - slave and drug cartel country, US slave country and various incidents like the trail of tears etc etc, Spain with the Spanish inqusition, etc etc. However even with these stains, it is what we as individuals and as a nation do to remember, make reperations for what has been done as much as possible and teach future generations about these lessons and so that the same incidents and things will not happen again!

[tipokot]

Spain with the Spanish inqusition

Talk about Custer, slavery, and Ceasar all you like but the Spanish inquisition might have been the worst of them all because nobody ever expected them. Amongst their weaponry were such diverse elements as surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.

[User-Luser]

The Spanish Inquisition is an interesting example.
The excesses of the Christian religious establishment occurred from c1500 - 1800, or from 500 to 200 years ago.
Islam was founded c610 therefore is 600 years younger than Christianity,
and is today suffering from excesses of the Religious establishment - The Taliban and others.

Let us hope it does not take them 300 years to reject that path.

FYI, African American Men got the vote in the USA 90 years after Independence
Women had to wait another 60 years.

Georg Santayana really nailed it

[DurryVony]

Reminds me of a story:

The Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding through the plains when they were set upon and surrounded by a horde of screaming Sioux warriors on horseback.

The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says, "Looks like we're in heap big trouble, Tonto!"

Tonto replies, "What do you mean "we", Paleface?!?"

[Fededorbprago]

FYI, African American Men got the vote in the USA 90 years after Independence

The shame about President Obama becoming the first African-American/Coloured/black president is that it shouldn't matter! Did they call George Washington the first white president?
The colour of your skin (ethnic background/religion etc) only matters when someone makes it matter, either yourself or someone else. If someone else makes it a point it's their problem!

(Although I do enjoy meeting people from different parts of my country/different countries/different backgrounds etc etc!!)

(Ok I know that unfortunately a lot of people on this planet of ours do make a point, in a negative way, about people who are different from themselves.)





BTY women got the vote?! When?! ( LOL )

[ForumMasta]

Amongst their weaponry were such diverse elements as surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.

I can't believe you got in first with that! It is so unexpected! Like the Spanish Inquisition, their chief weapon is . . . sorry!

Fetch the comfy chair!!

[Hervams]

Saw in the news today that Geronimo's great grand son wants the remains of Geronimo back so that they can be properly buried. link.. Something similar have been going on here, where remains of native laps where collected for research and eventually was sent back to the families.

[Heaneisismich]

Talk about Custer, slavery, and Ceasar all you like but the Spanish inquisition might have been the worst of them all because nobody ever expected them. Amongst their weaponry were such diverse elements as surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.

Genius, just pure genius!

[Fegasderty]

Kate Beckinsale...

For that alone, and the contributions of her costumer, we are grateful.

[SannyGlow]

Fetch the comfy chair!!

Nay. First bring out the rack.

Anytime I hear or read "the Spanish inquisition" Ximenez, Biggles, and Fang burst through my minds doors... DAAAAAHHH