[sStevenRitziI]

Last night at the dojo a discussion started about electronic scoring (like the scoring used in fencing). Not sure how it got started, I think it was an excuse for a break because we were all exhausted.

Anyway some of the comments were, " How can you electronically score zanshin"? and " Well at least a men ippon would be a men ippon!, unlike the Takanabe/Ushimura final" (a bit harsh I thought).

I don't think I would like Kendo going in this direction. What are your thoughts?

I have done a search through the forum and can't find much on this. Apologies in advance if I have missed a thread!

[Kneeniasy]

If its used as an adjunct to traditional refereeing then I think it can only increase the number of 'correct' decisions. So if someone makes a proper strike but without zanshin, the referee can simply override the decision. I'd advocate video monitoring and GPS too

[ArrichMer]

*vote to move to flames*

[GogaMegaPis]

C'mon, my 7th post and you want to discard me into the flames! This is a legit subject and a possibly a path Kendo could take one day. I feel it is something worth discussing, even as awful as it sounds.

[mikeydesignzinc]

The thread, not you.

[j2Y6Ysmb]

This could be good. Or simply adding a vibrating flag, if the hit is landed, then the correct flag will softly vibrating and the rest is depend on the shimpan's judgement. But to add a very light, thin and durable devices are challenging.

[Sleflanna]

I will put on my engineer hat. If budgets were unlimited, and the scoring equipment could be made lightweight I can think of some interesting possibilities.

You could go beyond a simple electrical connection to determine a "touch" and all of the associated problems (whipping so that the side of the blade contacts for a score). You could utilize pressure plates and set a threshold amount of force for a cut, or a duration of contact to ensure a push/pull motion. This could be adjusted for different weight classes/age groups, or the thresholds could be adjusted if one wanted to simulate armoured vs unarmoured combat. Some issues could arise with respect to ai-men etc, a simple electrical system might be able to signal who hit first, however in an ai men situation, both people are essentially "dead", so a threshold would need to be set to allow for overlaping contact.

You would need some intelligence for nidan waza, if a kote was scored electronically good, but the men was not considered "correct". This would account for the need for live shimpan as well.

This could be good. Or simply adding a vibrating flag, if the hit is landed, then the correct flag will softly vibrating and the rest is depend on the shimpan's judgement. But to add a very light, thin and durable devices are challenging.

That is a neat idea.

[Asianunta]

As a fencer, I can say that in fencing competitions, the time lost to faults with electrical equipment is significant. And believe me, arguments and wrong desicions are just as common.

Taking on a more general look - I wonder how/if kendo will adapt to new technologies.
For instance, rather than eletronics on the competitors, an electronic score board could show scores clearly and be updated at the press of a button.

A little off topic but the carbon fibre shinais are an example of using modern materials (I am aware that many people are not fond of these).

[invest7manager]

I don't like the idea, it's not Kendo and isn't what Kendo is about, kinda craps upon the values of Budo don't you think?

High-speed camers I wouldn't mind.

[Battwenue]

Making contact is only one of many criteria in yuko-datotsu. Kendo is also a progression and criteria are adjusted to the level of the players and competition and so far humans are the best machines for scoring this.

Having done fencing before, sabre fencing (probably the closest to kendo) was the least reliant on electronics, at least 15 years ago.

[MipRippoomamn]

This could be good. Or simply adding a vibrating flag, if the hit is landed, then the correct flag will softly vibrating and the rest is depend on the shimpan's judgement. But to add a very light, thin and durable devices are challenging.

By and large, this seems to be among the more sensible suggestions for electronic signaling that I can recall. You still have the shimpan making the final decision and, combining this idea with hl1978's engineering idea, could allow for a very unobtrusive aid that could allow for additional confirmation that a senshu's strike did in fact land. That being said however, there is the problem of being able to create a system that could tell the difference between a hit that is too shallow/deep and one using the monouchi. This would probably require the addition of some sort of sensor to the shinai.

We could go on all day about any sort of unobtrusive electronic aid for use during taikai but in the end, I feel that because of criteria for yuko-datotsu that can't be electronically measured, any sort of electronic scoring device would be extremely difficult to implement. It also would cast doubts on the shimpan's abilities as a kenshi, especially at high profile events such as the WKC or the All Japan Championships. I'm not saying that shimpan, as human beings, are infallible, but from a kendo standpoint, anything that seems to favor point scoring over technique should not be used.

[JessiPollo]

Don't need it, don't want it (electronic scoring).

[Olympicdreams]

kinda craps upon the values of Budo don't you think?

I think having competitions and point scoring did that a long time ago.

[ExpodoDop]

I think having competitions and point scoring did that a long time ago.

Not so sure of that, Samurai's used to battle each other to test their skill, these could be seen as "competitons" to an point. These battles took two forms, the first was to the death before Shini's and Bogu's was created and afterwards where they wouldn't kill the other Samurai.

[mymnduccete]

I think having competitions and point scoring did that a long time ago.

Given the winner's reaction at the end of this match, compared to that of this match, I don't think that's true. Kendo remains budo above all else.

Really, I don't see the point to electronic scoring, or even flags. Kendo refereeing is already tremendously accurate and efficient, despite a highly demanding set of criteria. For every Takanabe-Uchimura bout (which at worst is a judgment call, not a grievous error) you have a Takanabe-Teramoto bout. Electronic scoring wouldn't improve accuracy, at least, not enough to offset the drawbacks to having it.

[Niiinioa]

View from the outside ...
Depending upon electronics lessens a person's ability to perform without them. This has been proven in a number of scientific studies. Since Kendo is ultimately about improving the self, not winning competitions, why would you even consider implementing something that actually lessens the self rather than improving it? If your kendo is only about winning competitions, then I can see why you would advocate any technology which improves the point accuracy. If your kendo is actually about the stated goals of kendo, then human error from shimpan would be something very much worth keeping.

Just my opinion.

[ARKLqAZ6]

I will put on my engineer hat. If budgets were unlimited, and the scoring equipment could be made lightweight I can think of some interesting possibilities.[snip]

That's all just fantasy for now. I can't see it being practical or affordable. Any automation of the scoring would have to be simplified immensely to make reliable, affordable equipment. Even then it would be an expense and a burden to kendo clubs. As soon as electronic scoring happens, people will tailor their play to make the machines score, which will take kendo even further into the realm of pure sport than we want to go. Not to mention that we would all be forced to use some horrible electrified version of a carbon shinai along with some wired-up version of bogu - thanks, but no thanks.

This affects more than the players - an important element of kendo is acting as shimpan - understanding what is and is not a point and making those calls under pressure. Electronic scoring would also take away or limit that valuable experience.

[encunnibriG]

Since no one has posted it yet, discussion should at least be framed by the official rules:

Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
(spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
(mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
positive follow through of attack and strike),
a. One handed DATOTSU and DATOTSU in retreat, however,
must be executed after a clear positive strike.
b. GO-NO-WAZA (DATOTSU countering an opponent's DATOTSU)
as a counter or parry to TSUBA-ZERIAI (when both opponents
establish contact with TSUBA) must be clear and precise.

2. An accurate DATOTSU in the following instances shall be valid:
a. When a DATOTSU is made immediately after a player
loses their grip on the SHINAI or drops it.
b. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the opponent steps
out of bounds (court).
c. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the match is
signaled as ended.
3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
a. AIUCHI (valid DATOTSU made mutually and simultaneously
by both opponents).
b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.

[Ilaubuas]

Has anyone (on this forum or not) actually tried using anything like this? I sure would like to actually see some system like this in action. Maybe I'll try to throw something together this winter or next summer if I can find a way to make it without spending too much money. I have a few ideas floating around in my head already...

[Mr_White]

Kendo refereeing is already tremendously accurate

I have never seen any kind of objective analysis of the accuracy of kendo refereeing. To measure it as accurate, we would have to look at a set of actual calls and to compare them against a set of idealized calls to see how often they match up. I don't know for sure that there is any corpus of such idealized calls, or that there is even a consistent way to draw them up. Even kodansha can reasonably disagree about whether or not a particular point should be taken or not.

why would you even consider implementing something that actually lessens the self rather than improving it?

This is a really, really interesting point. Learning to do shimpan is very difficult and studying how to do it generates a lot of insight about kendo. I have never thought of acting as shimpan as a form of keiko before, but you have made me see that it is, in some sense, exactly that. From that sense, taking away the difficulties and pressures of acting as shimpan with electronic aids maybe directly affects the development of high level kendo skill. That's a new thought for me.