[curcercanty]

from post #20

Hi Aloka-D,

You are right it was poorly referenced. The only reference I have for the quote was referenced prior, it was from the same book - the Dalai Lama's book - How to see yourself as you really are - I am assuming it can be trusted if it has come from the Dalai Lama, however in future I will add something to the effect of "within the same book the Dalai Lama quoted Buddha saying ..." Incidentally, it was pp 185 at the beginning of a chapter titled - Noticing how everything depends on thought" Apologies for my tardiness.

Pink wrote: "We just observe them as they rise and dissolve, like observing the breathe. They're just passing through."

I liked the mindful approach to this that involves acceptance and allowing, being, and impermanence.

Glow wrote: What exactly are these unwholesome behaviors? Is it something the OP said? I don't see anything in that post that is unwholesome except the aversive attitude towards the sexual urges. That is what is causing dukkha -- not the urges themselves.

I agree with this. It does happen from time to time across religions and generations that puritanism comes into religious and spiritual pursuits around the issue of sexuality. Why does this occur...?

Perhaps it is not recognised that these ideas are very imbedded in social values and interpretations of moral and sexual behaviour of the time. And that these have changed over time, and this has been a good thing? Sometimes people may read things from scriptures that have been written by a mere mortal, in another time, or from a different cultural, social value system or world view. Perhaps taking it literally, making today's understandings wrong and evidence of a corruption of spiritual values, without considering it as a writing of insight that came from a prior age and stage of contemplation on a subject? A trial consciousness if you will, one that we saw the karmic results of and have now changed as a group due to the learning? Do we actually need a social sanction and agreement about where sexuality fits within the spiritual pathway ... it seems within organised religion this has occurred, as if this is a necessity in order to control and manage it ... is the idea of an inherent danger within sexuality at it's base when this occurs and what is the karmic consequence of continuing with this? Or is it necessary within spiritual practice for reasons such as Sobeh quoted from the Alagaddupama Sutta (MN 22) : "Sense desires are like bare bones, have I said; they are like a lump of flesh... they are like a snake's head, have I said. They bring much suffering and disappointment. The perils in them are greater. "

In some religions there are cases of people taking vows of chastity, suppressing their sexuality, and polarising it against spirituality, for the reason that it is a seemingly debase or immoral pursuit, and then committing sexual crimes, murder of those considered too sexual for the times, or violations within their own spiritual value system as a result, which also must have been preceded by mental and bodily experiences aligned with these acts - can this be seen as karma emerging from demonising sexuality and suppressing it? Those who have taken chastity vows and succeeded with what the Dalai Lama and Pink trike describes perhaps getting the karma of their different intention and feeling at peace with their sexual feelings?

I have come across people speaking of Tantra as an area of Buddhism that does not respond to sexuality in spiritual practice using a subjective individualised mediative process like the Dalai Lama explored. Although, like everything, there have been misunderstandings of Tantra and misuses of it, it seems when spoken of with reverence by genuine practitioners to celebrate the sensual side of human experience and embrace sexual energy in a more direct experiential way... with the philosophy that it is, so we accept it as, and bring the spiritual values into it by treating it with respect, disciplined practice, and express it with loving regard for the experience it offers and the way it can evolve the consciousness of the people involved around love and connection with one another. Is this another choice in terms of a way of working with it for the OP?

I wonder if one way of working with sexuality comes from teachings given to Monks who were taking vows of chastity so were needing to find something they could do alone. The other may offer a path to people who do not choose to take this vow, however are still wanting to work on their spiritual consciousness to the same degree?

I guess part of the process of deciding how to work with this part of us involves what we are looking for in terms of an outcome - the relief of personal suffering - a capacity to immerse oneself in it and use it to evolve spiritual consciousness or union - or .... what exactly - is this also a question to ask yourself OP - what do you want instead of what you have right now? Maybe this will open a pathway of what type of practice would enable this to occur?