[VEGLAS - SPB]

All right.

Things change.

No. Things are change.

Things are the mere products of change.

So they don't exist from their own side: they are the mere residue of transformations.

So what is it that is transformed or changed?

[viagracheapest]

What changes are the various elements (dhatu).

[Xutrsavf]

Good. No Question. No Mardale!

[overavantstandard]

Good. No Question. No Mardale!

Online ?? - how would we ever really know . Yet, Mardale existed as Mardale just did in the post above. Beyond that, there is nothing constant or certain.

[vioppyskype]

Online ?? - how would we ever really know . Yet, Mardale existed as Mardale just did in the post above. Beyond that, there is nothing constant or certain.

So do you mean that impermanence is not permanent so we might end up with permanence? Ouch! Generally speaking my Kamma was bad for a long time so I really need change!

PS I'm starting to teach again from tomorrow so I won't pest around this much.

[GECEDEANY]

So do you mean that impermanence is not permanent so we might end up with permanence? Ouch! Generally speaking my Kamma was bad for a long time so I really need change!

PS I'm starting to teach again from tomorrow so I won't pest around this much.

No, more like he was what he was at that time, which is no more ( or something like that !!!). In any event, what is important is the interaction and what it brings to you, and others.

[Toivaluadiora]

So they don't exist from their own side

Again, this view is close to Solipsism than Buddhism.

[Angry White American]

Again, this view is close to Solipsism than Buddhism.

Possibly not. To me, it sounded like the basis of appearing to exist is underlying causes & conditions.

[Twelearly]

Rather than saying it is the mind which ascribes its own characteristics to the outside world, the salient point in Buddhism as I see it is that everything exists in an
" asolipsistic " manner, that is, everything is interdependant on everything else - everything that does exist exists through their relationships with everything else.

[Mboxmaja]

Possibly not. To me, it sounded like the basis of appearing to exist is underlying causes & conditions.

Not speaking of this comment alone but the other threads of the OP as well. He seems to hold the common opinion that, since everything we know of is perceived by the six senses (the All), the outside world is a mere mind-made reality without an independent existence.

[texprofi]

Rather than saying it is the mind which ascribes its own characteristics to the outside world, the salient point in Buddhism as I see it is that everything exists in an
" asolipsistic " manner, that is, everything is interdependant on everything else - everything that does exist exists through their relationships with everything else.

I agree. The Buddha taught Dependent Origination and the Four Nobles Truths. Both systems explain the same thing namely Suffering and the end of Suffering.

[actrisski]

Not speaking of this comment alone but the other threads of the OP as well. He seems to hold the common opinion that, since everything we know of is perceived by the six senses (the All), the outside world is a mere mind-made reality without an independent existence. I think is a mistake to make as if Solipsism can not be seen as a subdivision of Buddhist thought. The Buddha was very clear about the fact that nothing has something like 'Independence'. It would however IMO be a mistake to confuse Buddhism with Philosophical terms. Solipsism has no independence either.

http://peterdellasantina.org/books/t...enment.htm#c19

[CKDIWEQ]

Not speaking of this comment alone but the other threads of the OP as well. He seems to hold the common opinion that, since everything we know of is perceived by the six senses (the All), the outside world is a mere mind-made reality without an independent existence.

Sure. Buddha was very clear the characteristics of the outside world have independent existence & that Nibbana also has independent existence.

Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant. All processes are unsatisfactory. All phenomena are not-self.

AN 3.134 There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

Nibbana Sutta As for 'The All', it is an unimportant teaching of Buddha, given it is not about dukkha nirodha. 'The All' is a Hindu (Brahministic notion), which Buddha redefined as psycho-physiology.

Regards

[Dodoerabe]

I completely disagree with both Element's and Deshy's statements. I think both of you are quoting the Suttas out of context. Can you supply some evidence for what you are saying?

The Buddha was clear about the Interdependence between the Born and the UN-born, the conditioned and the unconditioned, Samsara and Nirvana. If it wasn't for one the other could not be and there never arrives independence in any sense. What arises is the end of suffering. Cause and effect remains eternally.

[Sydrothcoathy]

Can you supply some evidence for what you are saying?

thanks Gaoxing. but evidence was already supplied, where Buddha taught, regardless of human awareness of it, the inherent characteristic of conditioned things is impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self (emptiness).

The Buddha was clear about the Interdependence between the Born and the UN-born, the conditioned and the unconditioned, Samsara and Nirvana. If it wasn't for one the other could not be and there never arrives independence in any sense.

It seems like you are confusing Gotama Buddha with Nagarjuna. It would suggest it is for you to supply some evidence about what Buddha taught. How can the "unconditioned" be subject to "interdependence"?

Kind regards

Element

[Casyimipist]

The Buddha taught the UNIVERSAL Characteristics of existence and not just the conditioned. Your quotes is evidence enough for me as it's a matter of what you read into the text that makes the difference. Liberation is a dynamic never ending story. Cause and effect will always be present. Nibbana is still dualistic phenomenal thinking. The ineffable can only be experienced.


All is impermanent. And what is the all that is impermanent? The eye is impermanent, visual objects [ruupaa]... eye-consciousness... eye contact [cakku-samphassa]... whatever is felt [vedayita] as pleasant or unpleasant or neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant, born of eye-contact is impermanent. [Likewise with the ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind] (SN 35.43/vol. iv, 28)

All formations are impermanent

Whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation [nirodha] (MN 56) The Buddha was Enlightened and then died.

[CoenceLomneedtrue]

The Buddha taught the UNIVERSAL Characteristics of existence and not just the conditioned.

Existence = the conditioned. Existence = bhava = becoming

Nibbana is not-self; but it is not impermanent & not unsatisfactory.

Buddha taught all conditioned things are impermanent & unsatifactory & all things (both conditioned & uncondtioned) are not self.

Your quotes is evidence enough for me as it's a matter of what you read into the text that makes the difference. The quote is interpreted literally. Buddha said: "whether or not there is the arising of Buddhas", the characteristics are.

Liberation is a dynamic never ending story. Buddha taught liberation does not fluctuate. Your opinion is different than Buddha.

His release [liberation], being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Unbinding [Nibbana] — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Unbinding, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....140.than.html ****
Cause and effect will always be present. Yes (but not in relation to Nibbana). When you say "cause & effect will always be present", you are asserting the independent existence of "cause & effect". In other words, you seem to be contradicting yourself & agreeing with Deshy & Element.

Nibbana is still dualistic phenomenal thinking. Non-sense. Nibbana is not "thinking". Nibbana is peace, as follows:

This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....026.than.html ****

The ineffable can only be experienced. Nibbana is the unconditoned. It already exists, waiting to be discovered, i.e., "uncovered", as the Buddha discovered it. It is experienced when the defilements of mind are removed, i.e., like when the cover is taken away.

Nibbana is not an "effect". Nibbana is not the result of defilements ending. Nibbana is something "uncovered" & experienced when defilements end.

The Buddha was Enlightened and then died. Yes. But Nibbana does not die. The mind of Buddha that experienced Nibbana died. But Nibbana does not die; nor is it born. Nibbana is not a nama-dhamma (mental phenomena). Nibbana is asankhata dhamma (unconditioned element).

Nibbana is the unborn & the undying. Nibbana is The Deathless. Again, Buddha disagrees with your opinion. Buddha explained:

Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding [Nibbana], I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....026.than.html

[longrema]

The ineffable can only be experienced.

As Deshy suggested, this appears lost in sophism.

Nibbana is an element (dhatu).

(THE ELEMENTS)

4. "But, venerable sir, in what way can a monk be called skilled in the elements?"

"There are, Ananda, these eighteen elements: the eye element, the form element, the eye-consciousness element; the ear element, the sound element, the ear-consciousness element; the nose element, the odor element, the nose-consciousness element; the tongue element, the flavor element, the tongue-consciousness element; the body element, the tangible element, the body-consciousness element; the mind element, the mind-object element, the mind-consciousness element. When he knows and sees these eighteen elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

5. "But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?"

"There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these six elements: the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element, and the consciousness element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

6. "But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?"

"There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these six elements: the pleasure element, the pain element, the joy element, the grief element, the equanimity element, and the ignorance element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

7. "But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?"

"There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these six elements: the sensual desire element, the renunciation element, the ill will element, the non-ill will element, the cruelty element, and the non-cruelty element. When he knows and sees these six elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

8. "But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?"

"There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these three elements: the sense-sphere element, the fine-material element, and the immaterial element. When he knows and sees these three elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

9. "But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?"

"There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

(THE BASES)

http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Tal...5-SUM03-TS.htm

[Nupbeaupeteew]

I'm really struggling with the BWB server. It keeps telling me it’s too busy so I have to keep my posts small. I'm also boxed in without my normal supply of resources here in China so please bear with me.

Your piece also talks about the pain and grief elements. In other words the word 'element' doesn't say much on its own.

The unconditioned is just the natural state of affairs without the illusions of the conditioned. The conditioned idea that stuff has inherent existence, namely independence, in the form of 'Self' or another entity like a conventional self or a separate outside world is the root cause of the conditioned. The conditioned does not affect the unconditioned because the unconditioned is just the natural normal healthy state of everyday life without the perversions of the conditioned. The body gets older, things still change, the wind blows, the rain falls, the seasons come and go but the pain of the conditioned is gone and there is no-one that will be born again because there was in the first place no one that was born. The only thing that was born was the ILLUSION of SELF with many former lives. Emptiness of conditioned phenomenon is required including the conditioned phenomenon of Nirvana. Unconditioned Nirvana is just the natural non-dualistic empty truth.

I feel Deshy is trying to say that not any philosophical thought can explain any part of Buddhism and it’s just not true. Philosophical thought is just much more limited and I see it as just very big words trying to explain what is already known as Sunatta.

Maybe this will be a good read. http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Bh...the_Buddha.pdf

The ‘Aery fairy’ stuff is just gone.

[User-Luser]

I dunno much about Solipsim or Buddhism really but it is from reading Buddhist teaching and hearing a quote from the philosopher Henri Bergson that I made the original post, which is not my "opinion". What are opinions or views worth? Which is the correct view of a house?

Is this not Buddhism: a "chair" exists, in the form of the various elements or parts which are given the label "chair" by us. The parts, labelled chair, exist. The Chair itself is a mere label, or attribution by mind.

There is the collection of parts, upon which we impute the "chair". This works, as a practical arrangement, and seems true to reality.

The problems arise when we begin to believe that the "chair" really exists in an independent sense, other than as a mere aggregate of parts given a label of "chair".

The parts are real enough, relatively speaking. In relation to my toe, they are pretty solid, as I discover if I stub my toe against them. But the "chair"? What is that, beyond a creation of mind?

Is that Buddhism, or solipsism?