[Precturge]

Hello.

I would like to clear out three points about the six realms of existence.

- 1

I always thought the hierarchy of the six realms was :

- hell
- hungry ghosts
- animals
- humans
- asura (semi gods)
- gods

But I've heard some cultures like to place Asura's before human on this scale. Have you ever heard of that ? How semi gods could be placed between animals and humans ?

- 2

From what I've read in Chogyam Trungpa "Bardo", Gods are spiritualy speaking lower than humans, because their minds are blinded by feelings of opulence and strong pleasures. Trungpa says when gods are dying, their mind always fall from the feeling of having a glorious existence to the feeling of loosing everything, and this tremendous fall explains why they reincarnate in lower realms like animals or worse. Have you ever heard of some rare cases where gods reborn in human realms ? Can a god beneficiate from a karmic blessing they had before they became god that helps them find a human form ?

- 3

In Thich Nath Hanh "Diamond that cuts through illusion", Thay talks about the fact everybody has been to hell before been to the human realm. I am curious about that. I understand when you reach enlightment and you escape the realms of existence, you remain in the essence of things (Nirvana) without reincarnate anymore, but it is possible from there to fall in ignorance again and get back to the Samsara. Ok. But a spirit leaving the Nirvana to get back to the Samsara could reborn in the human realms, and from there get back to the Nirvana, I mean going through hell doesn't seem ineluctable. So why did Thich Nath Hanh said we all being to hell before ?

Thank you so much

[Fsfkkkjz]

But I've heard some cultures like to place Asura's before human on this scale. Have you ever heard of that ? How semi gods could be placed between animals and humans ?

hi BlueFaky

this is common because some cultures include the Asura realm as a woeful state. for example, in Thailand:

What is the meaning of the Four Woeful States?

THE FIRST OF the Four Woeful States is hell. Hell is anxiety (in Thai, literally “a hot heart”).

Now rebirth in the realm of beasts is stupidity.

The third Woeful State is the condition of a peta, a ghost that is chronically hungry because his desires continually outrun the supply of goods.

The last Woeful State is the realm of the asuras (cowardly demons). First to explain the word asura: sura means “brave”, a means “not”, thus asura means “not brave” or “cowardly”. Take it that whenever one is cowardly without reason, one has been spontaneously reborn an asura. Being afraid of harmless little lizards, millipedes or earthworms is unjustified fear and a form of suffering. To be afraid unnecessarily, or to be afraid of something as a result of pondering too much on it, is to be reborn as an asura.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bu...y_Students.pdf

[hhynmtrxcp]

From what I've read in Chogyam Trungpa "Bardo", Gods are spiritualy speaking lower than humans, because their minds are blinded by feelings of opulence and strong pleasures. Trungpa says when gods are dying, their mind always fall from the feeling of having a glorious existence to the feeling of loosing everything and this tremendous fall explains why they reincarnate in lower realms like animals or worse. Have you ever heard of some rare cases where gods reborn in human realms? Can a god beneficiate from a karmic blessing they had before they became god that helps them find a human form?

Buddha held both the human realm & God realm are OK, as follows:

Few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell... in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.

In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among devas. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell... in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.

In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the deva realm, are reborn among devas. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the deva realm, are reborn in hell... in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.

In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the deva realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the deva realm, are reborn in hell... in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.

SN 56.102-113 However, for the most part, the human realm is considered the best for enlightenment because it is the realm of renunciation.

[outdog]

So why did Thich Nath Hanh said we all being to hell before?

Yes, Buddha also taught:

In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the hell realm, are reborn among devas (gods). Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the hell realm, are reborn in hell... in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.

In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the hell realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the hell realm, are reborn in hell... in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts. imo, Thich Nath Hanh possibly said this because generally we have all suffered before finding Buddhism.

regards

[paydayloanfasters]

Thank you Element for taking the time to write this great answer.
I haven't been to this forum for long, but I can already say it is very nice and I have received a warm welcome. Thank you very much to all of you in BuddhismWithoutBoundaries.

imo, Thich Nath Hanh possibly said this because generally we have all suffered before finding Buddhism. Yes it would be one explanation. Thich Nath Hanh also often says things like "when you are with your girlfriend, do not believe she is there just for you, she is everywhere at the same time" and "When I can't sleep, I practice mindfulness and focus on my breath, thus I can embrace and love the whole world". Thay obviously likes the idea we are connected to the whole world, so peraphs his idea extends to the belief we also are connected with hell"

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in "The joyfull Path" says "We've all seen violence in our lives, we all know chaos can remain in one place for a while, we should not doubt the fact there is another place where chaos is permanent".

He seems to believe all realms of existence are somehow interlocked. This would fit with Thay belief of one's being everywhere at the same time.

Would you happen to know other books such as Chogyam Trungpa "Bardo" about death and how your spirit state while dying is influential on how you cross bardo ? (apart from the Tibetan Books Of The Dead)

If you haven't read it already, I recommand Sogyal Rimpoche's "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying". http://www.rigpa.org/en/about-sogyal...and-dying.html

Thanks again for your answer

[retTreftowhexm]

Would you happen to know other books such as Chogyam Trungpa "Bardo" about death and how your spirit state while dying is influential on how you cross bardo ? (apart from the Tibetan Books Of The Dead)

thank you BlueFaky

i am not a student of Tibetan Buddhism. perhaps Ngagpa or some other members can comment here

kind regards

[prmnwoks]

Hello Bluefaky,

I can't comment on Kelsang Gyatso(I flicked through some of his early teachings years ago) but I can't really remember them.

I like Chogyam Trungpa's writing and teaching style although again if it related directly to the Death bardo I can't recall particulars.

You will find that different lineages in Vajrayana emphasise different aspects regarding the Bardos (even numbering and classification sometimes appears apparently quite different ) also teachings regarding practice with the Bardos can also appear quite different in both emphasis and application.

Do you know which particular lineage in Vajrayana teaching you would be interested in?
Or is it just an overview of the general teachings on Bardo you want?

[Voitramma]

Hello Ngagpa,

Thank you for your help.

My knowledge of Buddhism is not good enough for me to know exactly what is Vajrayana and where to look for what I want.
Most things I've read about the Bardos came from Chogyam Trungpas's, Sogial Rimpoche and the Tibetan Book Of The Dead. As far as I know all these people are (were) Tibetan so I suppose I need something from that root.
It is the descriptions of the mind evolving without the body-limits that are interesting to me. The visions and the meetings you make in the Bardos, the consequences of your neurosis precluding you from seing the light and making you cling with the entities you meet.

Thanks in advance

[drugimpotence]

Hi BlueFakey,

Its worth knowing that the Buddha didn't teach about the "Bardo". It was taught by an Indian Tantric teacher called Padmasambhava (Guru Rinpoche) who went to Tibet in the 9th Century - and it was then absorbed into what is now called "Tibetan Buddhism".

with kind wishes

Aloka

[AngegepeM]

Hi bluefaky,
Aloka-D is absolutely correct that the teachings known as the Bardos were given by Guru Rinpoche.

some information on him here:

http://www.dharmafellowship.org/biog...masambhava.htm

Chogyam Trungapa Rinpoche information here:

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/chogyam-trungpa.php/

Sogyal Rinpoche Information here:

http://www.rigpa.org/en/about-sogyal-rinpoche.html

As you will see Chogyam and Sogyal are/were Lineage holders for Kagyu/Nyingma and Nyingma respectively although both were followers of the rimay or "non-sectarian" movement.

In Vajrayana Padmasambhava is considered a Buddha (sometimes called the second Buddha) who taught Tantrayana or the Tantrik Vehicle.

I will try and dig out some basic Bardo teachings from the Nyingma and Kagyu lineages.
apologies if this takes a little time, I don't have any on file and i am a little busy at the moment

Hope this is O.K?

[foltdan]

Fantastic ! Thanks Ngagpa and Aloka