[UJRonald]

Buddha actually taught (in MN 117) to believe in reincarnation was not Noble Right View and not a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path

Hi Element,

Can the teaching be more accurately described as being that right view is not about belief in reincarnation?

[PypeDeft]

Can the teaching be more accurately described as being that right view is not about belief in reincarnation?

MN 117 advises there are two kinds of right view

1. ordinary right view, with fermentations, which believes in 'beings' subject to reincarnation

2. noble right view, without fermentations, which believes in selfless elements (emptiness)

in the noble right view, it is considered inappropriate to believe in a past, present & future 'self' or 'being'

Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him and arisen fermentations increase.

This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

MN 2 regards

[Yartonbler]

Hi again Element, I see the above quote, from MN 2, a little differently - it may not be significant to you - hope you can indulge me a little further .

The relevant emphasis I see being on what we attend to - have our focus on.

By allowing our concerns to be on ideas not fit for our attention ( to me this means spending our time on ideas about reincarnation ) we do not have time to attend to the important life - the only one we have chance of living and practicing in, now. I agree with Brad Warner's sentiments about our ability to know anything post life.

My experience in TB is that attention for practice is not based on ideas of reincarnation, and post this life reincarnation is not the focus of practice 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. Online discusssions draw attention towards aspects which differ in approaches to practice.

[mirex]

Brad Warner, who is a Soto Zen priest, mentions Dogen in this video (approx 4 mins) "Life after Death and Reincarnation" I still say not only what Dogen said but also how he is interpreted is contradictory... for example:

Okumura says “Personally I don’t believe in literal rebirth, yet I don’t deny its existence either. I have no basis for believing in or denying literal rebirth; the only thing I can say with surety is ‘I don’t know.’”

People often ask me, ‘What is the Sōtō Zen view of rebirth?’ This is a difficult question because Dōgen Zenji, I believe, advocates ‘not knowing’ in this case.”


Where as;
Rev. Shohaku Okumura….in Shobogenzo Sanjigo (Karma in the Three Times), or Jinshin-inga (Deeply Believing in Cause and Result), Dogen puts emphasis on faith in the principle of cause and result beyond this present lifetime. Also in Shobogenzo Doshin (Way Mind) Dogen encourages people to deeply take refuge in the Three Treasures; Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. And gives advice that one should ceaselessly chant "I take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha" during the period of chuu (antara-bhava) between death in this life and the next birth, that is usually considered to be 49 days. He said, we should chant "I take refuge in the Buddha," life after life until we reach buddhahood. I am pretty sure Dogen himself believes in the bodhisattvas' henyaku-shoji, (transforming life and death) that is, as the Buddha did, bodhisattvas practice life after life because of their vows to save all beings and accomplish the buddhahood.


Gudo NISHIJIMA says in answer to a question regarding Dogen.

Dear Master Nishijima,
In one of your previous answers, you said:
"Following Master Dogen's opinion he denied the existence of life after death in Bendo-wa, or Soku-shin-ze-butsu, and so I do not believe in the existence of the life after death."
How is this not a view of annihilationism? (which was preached against by Shakyamuni Buddha)

I imagine that Dogen meant that we are not the same person in the next life as we are now, and thus there is no "after-life" in that sense. But I'm not sure if this is also your interpretation.

Dogen himself says:

"...Therefore, rejoice in your birth into the world, where you are capable of using your body freely to offer food to the Three Treasures: the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Samgha. Considering the innumerable possibilities in a timeless universe we have been given a marvelous opportunity. The merit of working as a tenzo will never decay. My sincerest desire that you exhaust all the strength and effort of all your lives - past, present, and future - and every moment of every day into your practice through the work of the tenzo, so that you form a strong connection with the buddhadharma. To view all things with this attitude is called Joyful Mind..."

and from Dedication of Merit verse from the daily practice booklet;

"With the good karma gathered in this practice, we repay the virtuous toils of our fathers and mothers, that the living may be blessed with joy and long life without dis- tress, and the deceased freed from suffering and born in the pure land. May the four benefactors, sentient beings in the three classes of existence, and those born in the three evil destinies and eight difficulties all be able to repent their transgressions, purify their defects, entirely escape the round of rebirth, and be bom in the pure land."

seems a little incongruous to me....not that it matters

[indartwm]

Could you give URL references for all quotes please, Ngagpa.

[enasseneiff]

Kered you would probably be interested in secular buddhism. Look for the books of Stephen Batchelor. And also look for podcasts. There are some excellent retreat podcasts by him and other secular teachers such as John Peacock. Google secular buddhism.

[Civilrecordzz]

By allowing our concerns to be on ideas not fit for our attention ( to me this means spending our time on ideas about reincarnation ) we do not have time to attend to the important life

Imo, the sutta indicates more than that.

Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him and arisen fermentations increase Imo, more than just wasting time and losing focus on the current life, such views can agitate the mind, arousing asava.

[UMATURLIN]

I can follow the distinction you are making Deshy. In my opinion which is based on my experience, it is the not attending to the important ideas, which includes understanding the role of our views, which leads to the agitation.

[zzquo0iR]

If you see yourself primarily as an agnostic or even atheist and do not believe in rebirth as such you may look into the teachings of the Buddhist teacher Stephen Batchelor. His views on karma are a little controversial for a Buddhist but you may like to listen to some talks given by him - http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/12/

[Michmant]

In my opinion which is based on my experience, it is the not attending to the important ideas, which includes understanding the role of our views, which leads to the agitation.

According to suttas, the role of view of "other worlds" is for morality rather than relinquishment. They are mundane because they encourage frementation and mental outflows, but they are right views because they direct these outflows towards wholesome deeds and thoughts like charity and non-harming.