[ggandibazz]

"Dharma teachings point to Nibbana"

imo, the Dharma teachings point to the path...if i do not keep my eye on the path & look at the moon in the distance, i may fall over & hurt myself

[PetrZimin]

i just bought lunch. there were three sandwiches left to choose from: (1) roast beef & salad; (2) corned beef & salad; and (2) chicken & lettuce

i said to the lady: "i will have the corned beef sandwich"

is using the term "corned beef sandwich" taking me closer to Buddhahood, further from Buddhahood or is it irrelevent?

Gassho

Did you want corn beef or not?

[exeftWabreava]

Did you want corn beef or not?

I just needed lunch. If I wanted to choose, I needed to arrive to the cafe earlier! But definitely did not prefer the roast beef

But I was referring to the need to communicate. For example, in Zen enlightenment, can we ask: "Pass the salt, please?"

Or is the concept of "salt" unenlightenment?

[Romarionsion]

imo, the Dharma teachings point to the path...if i do not keep my eye on the path & look at the moon in the distance, i may fall over & hurt myself

Gassho

Yes. (The statement was not mine - it was quoted from another member.)

A layperson goes to the martial Arts master and asks: "How long will it take me to get to Black Belt?"
The Master replies: "Five years."
"And if I train twice as hard, how long will it take me?" the lay person asks.
"Ten years," replies the master.
"And if I train three times as hard?
"20 years," replies the master.
"How come," asks the now annoyed layperson, "If I train twice as hard it takes me twice as long and if I train three times as hard it will be even longer?"
The Master replies: "With your eyes firmly fixed on the goal how will you see the path you need to walk?"

[Tainlyferfara]

Gassho

I am sorry, do you not wish to engage with me?

If not, I will continue my wanderings.

I am in a different time zone - it is my sleeping time !

[Morageort]

I just needed lunch. If I wanted to choose, I needed to arrive to the cafe earlier! But definitely did not prefer the roast beef

But I was referring to the need to communicate. For example, in Zen enlightenment, can we ask: "Pass the salt, please?"

Or is the concept of "salt" unenlightenment?

Gassho

Of course in Zen you can ask "Pass the salt please" if you need salt.

In terms of the need to communicate, it depends entirely on the context. In a koan session, for instance, "Pass the salt please" may require an entirely different answer than if the same question was asked at the dining table, where it would require an action-answer rather than a word-answer.

In terms of your original question then, if you were acting mindfully (which is the point of my question: "Did you want corned beef or not?") then yes, using the term "corned beef sandwich" is taking you closer to Buddhahood.

[SueveDobe]

I am in a different time zone - it is my sleeping time !

Gassho

Then have a nice sleep.

[BodoidearoLew]

I'm not quite sure that I understand what you are proposing here.

I think it could be said that Realisation is the ending of the Self, but I think that gives the wrong emphasis.

Personally I would express it as "With the letting go of the Self, comes Realisation". Cause and effect are the other way round, in my view.

Are you sure about this? Can you give the source of your information? The Buddha is never known to have used the term 'Buddha' himself, so that throws some doubt on the accuracy of your quote.

Woodscooter.

This may sound strange but I think it goes both ways. Realization ends the self and letting go of the self causes realization. They feed each other.

[outfinofulpv]

There are a number of factors that show the end result of following Buddhism would be the realisation of its limitations and therefore its cessation.

Hi Joshu,
I can see where you are coming from. There is the simile of the raft, ie. once you cross the river you no longer need it. This is very clearly stated in Buddhism and marks a transition (perhaps gradual) from a beginner's complete reliance on scripture, to a follower who has direct experience of the actual contents of those scriptures.

Since everyone has different needs at different times, the complete spectrum of approaches has relevance.

I think though it's a mistake to discard teachings up front - as some seem to propose (not saying you do btw) in favour of an assumed 'direct approach'. Like throwing a newbie in at the deep end and saying 'just swim'. May work for a few but many more will drown.

The basic sutta teachings (if used practically rather than dogmatically) are a foundation and roadmap for all that follows. They put our journey into context until we no longer need anything to be put into context.

[ladleliDypenue]

Only the continuity of thinking as the psychological phenomenon, considers itself to be something, whether 'Buddhist' or 'Republican' or anything else. There is no such thing as an enlightened Buddhist.

[justashonglefan]

Only the continuity of thinking as the psychological phenomenon, considers itself to be something, whether 'Buddhist' or 'Republican' or anything else. There is no such thing as an enlightened Buddhist.

self-identification may end but the mind practising "Buddhism" does not end

consider the following famous words of the arahant Assaji:

After they had exchanged the usual courteous greetings. Upatissa said: "Serene are your features, friend. Pure and bright is your complexion. Under whom, friend, have you gone forth as an ascetic? Who is your teacher and whose doctrine do you profess?"

Assaji replied: "There is, O friend, the Great Recluse, the scion of the Sakyas, who has gone forth from the Sakya clan. Under that Blessed One I have gone forth. That Blessed One is my teacher and it is his Dhamma that I profess." in enlightenment, greed, hatred, delusion, attachment & self-identification end however speaking conventional truth does not

it is the mind that takes refuge in Buddhism (the teachings) and it is the mind that realises the Dhamma (natural truth)

the mind is impersonal. Buddhism is impersonal. Natural Truth is impersonal. the enlightened ('buddha') mind is impersonal

enlightenment manifests as liberation. if concepts cannot be communicated by an enlightened mind, then this is not liberation

instead, it is bondage to non-conceptuality; it is bondage to silence & non-being

imo, enlightenment does not end 'Buddhism' or 'trees' or 'dog' or 'clouds'. imo, enlightenment just ends attachment to things, including ending attachment to Buddhism

regards

[Deva:]
He who's an Arahant, his work achieved,
Free from taints, in final body clad,
That monk still might use such words as "I."
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]
Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech [conventions],
He would speak conforming to such use.

SN 1.25 648. The usual way of the world is to be planned about name and clan,
But accumulated things meet coincidently, at the right time.

[Bodhi: For name and clan are assigned as mere designations of the world;
Origination in conventions, they are assigned here & now]

649. Ignorantly entangled in views for a long time,
The not knowing tell us, that by birth a brahmin is born.

650. By birth a brahmin is not born, by birth a non-brahmin is not born,
By actions a brahmin is born, by actions a non-brahmin is born.

651. By actions a farmer is born, by actions a craftsman is born,
By actions a merchant is born, by actions a workman is born.

652. By actions a robber is born, by actions a soldier is born,
By actions an adviser is born, by actions a king is born.

653. Thus the wise see action as it really is,
Seeing it dependently arise becomes clever in the results of actions.

MN 98 Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

There's the convention 'a being.'

SN 5.10 "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."

Potthapada Sutta

[Tjfyojlg]

so we may all become closer to Buddhahood.

for beginners, developing thorough familiarity with 'non-conceptuality', 'non-being' and 'non-existence' leads closer to Buddhahood

but for the mind closer to but not yet at Buddhahood, penetrating the following quotes leads to Buddhahood

regards

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140 By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

SN 12.15

[foI3fKWv]

for beginners, developing thorough familiarity with 'non-conceptuality', 'non-being' and 'non-existence' leads closer to Buddhahood

but for the mind closer to but not yet at Buddhahood, penetrating the following quotes leads to Buddhahood

regards

Gassho

Thank you for the quotes. Truly excellent.

One question: I do not understand your referencing - can you please explain MN 140 and SN 12.15

[Wvq9InTM]

can you please explain MN 140 and SN 12.15

Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 140

Samyutta Nikaya Chapter 12 Sutta 15

[TRASIAOREXOLA]

The psychological phenomenon is the continuity of thought and it might practice Buddhism, but it cannot realize truth, because truth is its absence.



.

[Faungarne]

when Kitsogotami lost her child, she realised the truth (which set her mind free) after the Buddha sent her on a mission to acquire one mustard seed from a household that had not experienced death.

[Jffxljtw]

The psychological phenomenon is the continuity of thought and it might practice Buddhism, but it cannot realize truth, because truth is its absence.

Gassho

So what is it then, that realizes truth?

Quick, say a word ...

[esdfsdflast]

What is the reality of subject and object?

[bDvYaQfM]

what is meant by "subject"?

[viagradiscounttt]

when Kitsogotami lost her child, she realised the truth (which set her mind free) after the Buddha sent her on a mission to acquire one mustard seed from a household that had not experienced death.

Yes, this truth does not need to stop us from grieving for lost loved ones. In the same way it does not necessarily lead to individuals stopping committed relationships and having children. In this way we will continue having need of the instruction and practice from the Teachings.