[AlissBart]

Greetings,

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma"... p. 188:

The compendium of process-freed consciousness opens with a rurvey of the topography of the phenomenal world, charting the planes of existence and the various realms within each plane. (See Table 5.1). The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind, registering in concrete manifest form the subtle gradations in states of consciousness. This does not mean that the Abhidhamma reduces the outer world to a dimension of mind in the manner of philosophical idealism. The outer world is quite real and possesses objective existence. The outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness, and the type of consciousness determines the nature of the world that appears. Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent and inextriably connected to such an extent that the hierarchical structure of the realms of existence exactly reproduces and corresponds to the hierarchical structure of consciousness.

Because of this correspondence, each of the two, the objective hierarchy of existence and the inner gradation of consciousness, provides the key to understanding the other. The reason why a living being is reborn into a particular realm is because he has generated, in a previous life, the kamma or volitional force of consciousness that leads to the rebirth into that realm, and thus the final analysis all the realms of activity of existence are formed, fashioned, and sustained by the mental activity of living beings. At the same time these realms provide the stage for consciousness to continue its evolution in a new personality and under a fresh set of circumstances

What is all this about?

Metta,
Retro.

[Adimonnna]

SN 12.15...

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. Compare that with Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The outer world is quite real and possesses objective existence."

Is the Buddha saying Bhikkhu Bodhi does not possess Right View?

Metta,
Retro.

[Jueqelyl]

First, congratulations for having laboured through to page 188. I can only tell you my understanding without any guarantee that this is what Bikkhu Bodhi (or respectively Nara Maha Thera - difficult to tell) had in mind: it's a sort of compromise between the extremes of metaphysical realism and metaphysical idealism. There is neither an outer world completely independent of consciousness as in Kant's noumenon, nor is there an inner world completely independent of the outer world. The outer world may be a reflection of the inner world in the sense of being conditioned by it and vice versa, but not a projection in the sense of being totally constructed from scratch. That's how I interpret this.

The Kaccayanagotta Sutta makes a similar point, but instead of employing the Western antithetical notions of realism vs. idealism is employs the Indian antithetical notions of existence vs. non-existence. The essence is in the first paragraph you quoted, which is quite terse, but seems to convey the idea that the extremes should be avoided, as they are wrong views. Which means the view that the outer world ultimately doesn't exist is wrong, as well as the view that the outer world ultimately does exist (at face value). Both are expressions of a middleway teaching that runs counter to classical (Western) binary logic.

Cheers, Thomas

[cialesxtr]

The outer world is quite real and possesses objective existence. The outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness, and the type of consciousness determines the nature of the world that appears.

I think here is a very important fact. The objective existence of the world and a consciousness that is giving a particular and very often, deluded, partial and convenient "reading" of that objective existence. So we fit constantly objective facts into a personal framework of our mind in an endless attachment and aversion to those same objective facts. Thus, ending in suffering.

This essential aspect points toward mind discipline and ethical conduct. Both are intermingled. In accordance with Buddhist teachings ethical conduct do not means to behave as a "good person" but to discern between wholesome and unwholesome actions. Actions that give us mindfulness and pacefull state of mind or actions that do not. Discernment is for adults; Being good person is for children. Discernment is impossible without mind discipline and mind discipline is built through meditation and a deep commitment with ethical precepts. Meditation gives us a direct understanding of that objective existence without the delusive conditions that an untrained mind has.

[Garry Hovard]

(Bodhi the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind, registering in concrete manifest form the subtle gradations in states of consciousness.

Th Abhidhammists (what a joke to call it "abhi"-dhamma --it's just the opposite!) presented this eisegesis to dredge up an illusion of support for pre-Buddha superstitions in the Buddha's own liberative teachings. Note the use of the term "states of consciousness", which means something entirely different from the strictly perceptual definition the Buddha used in his own teachings.

(Bodhi
The outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness, and the type of consciousness determines the nature of the world that appears.

Again, we are presented with eisegetical forms of consciousness-as-entity, unrelated to the Buddha's teachings.

(Bodhi
Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent...

And how is the rest of the world dependent upon my being conscious of it or not? how many people and other creatures die every day, and yet the world keeps spinning? It's ridiculous.

(Bodhi
....and inextriably connected to such an extent that the hierarchical structure of the realms of existence exactly reproduces and corresponds to the hierarchical structure of consciousness......

...and we head off into a wilderness of speculative views, a psycho-cosmological fantasy in order to prop up equally superstitious beliefs in karma and reincarnation.

(Bodhi
Because of this correspondence, each of the two, the objective hierarchy of existence and the inner gradation of consciousness, provides the key to understanding the other. The reason why a living being is reborn....

-- And there it is now!

(Bodhi
into a particular realm is because he has generated, in a previous life, the kamma or volitional force of consciousness that leads to the rebirth into that realm,

And where does the Buddha say that consciousness is kamma? Or that kamma is the "volitional force of "consciousness"? The Buddha teaches that each type of consciousness is a perceptual event that arises at the nexus of contact between a sensory system and an object within the sensory range of that sensory system. The Buddha did not teach that any of these perceptual events required any sort of "volitional force" to arise, and neither does this "volitional force" business comport with reality. I don't need any sort of "volitional force" to hear a loud noise that occurs nearby. It's just gobbledy-gook.

(Bodhi
...and thus the final analysis all the realms of activity of existence are formed, fashioned, and sustained by the mental activity of living beings.

If that were the case, we could all eat cake and ice cream in hell just by willing it to appear.

(Bodhi
At the same time these realms provide the stage for consciousness to continue its evolution in a new personality and under a fresh set of circumstances

[/quote]

And here again we have Bodhi declaring that the Buddha taught of a "consciousness" entity that transmigrates from one life to another; exactly the same claim that rightly earned Sati the Fisherman's Son a public humiliation from the Buddha:

Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

"Sati, what is that consciousness?"

"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."

"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, what do you think, has this this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, learned anything from this dispensation?" "No, venerable sir."

When this was said the bhikkhu Sati became silent, unable to reply back, and sat with drooping shoulders and eyes turned down. Then the Blessed One, knowing that the bhikkhu Sati had become silent, unable to reply back, and was sitting with drooping shoulders and with eyes turned down, told him: "Foolish man, you will be known on account of this pernicious view; now I will question the bhikkhus on this."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, do you too know of this Teaching, the wrong view of the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, on account of which he misrepresents us and also destroys himself and accumulates much suffering?"

"No, venerable sir. In various ways we have been taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness."

"Good, bhikkhus! Good that you know the Dhamma taught by me. In various ways I have taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, by holding to this wrong view, misrepresents us and destroys himself and accumulates much demerit, and it will be for his suffering for a long time.

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness.

What is all this about?

It's all about the artificial Brahminization/Hinduization of the Buddha's teachings. Bhikkhu Bodhi should uncover the red dot on his forehead and be done with it.

[bZEUWO4F]

The Kaccayanagotta Sutta makes a similar point, but instead of employing the Western antithetical notions of realism vs. idealism is employs the Indian antithetical notions of existence vs. non-existence.

The difference is that the Buddha's Middle Teaching discards both of these speculative views -- and everything in between, along with all else philosophical -- and instead focuses upon our reactions to our own perceptions of the world.

[affozyBoomi]

Greetings Stuka,

It's all about the artificial Brahminization/Hinduization of the Buddha's teachings. Bhikkhu Bodhi should uncover the red dot on his forehead and be done with it

Do you mean this one?

[img width=199 height=300]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4773505621_a11729f2ba.jpg[/img]

Metta,
Retro.

[yWleIJm4]

Greetings Stuka,

Originally Posted by stuka It's all about the artificial Brahminization/Hinduization of the Buddha's teachings. Bhikkhu Bodhi should uncover the red dot on his forehead and be done with it

Do you mean this one?

[img width=199 height=300]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4773505621_a11729f2ba.jpg[/img]

Metta,
Retro.


Oh, Right, Retro, you Photoshopped this just for my benefit, didn't you?


ROFLMAO

[thakitt]

I am intrigued Retrofuturist. Are we to hear more on the subject of Abhidhamma?