[thakitt]

1. Could turning off a life support machine ever be considered the right thing to do for a Buddhist patient ?

2. Is euthanasia a moral issue for Buddhists? If so, why?

What are your personal views about this ?

[maxsobq]

from post #1

Personally l would not want to depend on some life-support system,if it came to l'd just want to die.
l see no point in dragging out the inevitable.
So for me euthanasia is a non-issue.

[dxpfmP0l]

Buddhist ethics revolves primarily around intent. If the intent is to be compassionate, I'd see no problem. Others, however, may take a more legalistic approach and point to the precept prohibiting killing. I recall reading several suttas in which the Buddha indicated that following the intent of the precepts is more important than obeying the letter.

[zibTefapparia]

Buddhist ethics revolves primarily around intent. If the intent is to be compassionate, I'd see no problem.

Seems to me that FBM is right on target, but, to me, issues concerning Euthanasia are complex and multi-faceted depending whose point of view you take- including the receiver, the enabler or giver, and, sometimes, the decision maker separate from the person receiving the euthanasia. If one poses the question on a purely "religious" basis, the answers are easier that if one asks the question from a broader perspective. It seems to me that, in Buddhism, the choice of euthanasia could be considered right action in some circumstances and I would be interested to know of any suttas that address this issue.

From a personal point of view, I would like to have the option of being euthanized if I develop a terminal disease and the remaining life would only be one of suffering with no "useful"( a personal judgment) time left. Assuming I was mentally competent, I would have my family involved so that they need not feel guilty. During my career, I saw more than a few terminally ill folks kept alive using heroic means which only increased suffering, often at the direction of family members who either did not know or did not understand the wishes of the ill person or, equally as likely, were unable to react to the idea of death with any rational thought.. At times the ill person had advised their next of kin to squeeze every last second out of life.

From the point of view of the provider – usually a doctor – that provides the drugs to end life, many difficult questions arise. Should the provider go simply on the wishes of the patient? Suppose the patient is severely depressed and requests euthanasia – should such a patient have the right to do so and, if not, what entity should decide such a person is not a candidate? How do we go about generating a list of conditions which justify euthanasia? What if the family of a profoundly demented individual requests euthanasia for their family member – should the family have the right to do so regardless of the severity of the dementia, thereby ending someone else's life (possibly based on financial reasons)? What if, after performing euthanasia, a long-lost son or daughter who hasn't seen the person euthanized in decades shows up and challenges, in court, the doctor's decision to proceed? Most of these considerations would be paramount in the US where litigation against physicians purely to make money is so common.

Suppose you are the person making the decision to euthanize another. Will you be able to do it? Will you have pangs of uncertainty even if professionals are telling you to proceed. If it is a loved one (say a parent) what will the after effects of such a decision be on you?

I can tell you that, even after 30 years of medical practice, "pulling the plug" on someone was intensely uncomfortable for me, even of I had no doubt that it was the right thing to do - I could provide examples if there is any question of when such a thing is justified. In the US, physicians get very little training or exposure to these ideas until they are actually in practice. Once in practice they pretty much "go it alone" when it comes to such issues – there is little sharing (with the probable exception of psychiatry) between physicians about such questions.

Of course, one can choose suicide as a means of ending life but such an action has profound effects on loved ones remaining. I have been told by psychiatrist friends that suicide almost always entails anger or a wish to punish someone else and my experience bears this out.

I've tried to summarize some views on an issue I find to be very complex and difficult to analyze. I would love to hear the opinions of others about some of the considerations I brought up.

Frank, euthanasia could be an issue if you wished and no one is willing to provide the means.

[QualityReachOut]

While it presents problems if institutionalized in our society that screws everything up, It isn't an issue for me personally. There's no need to fetishize life to the point that Westerners have. When the body becomes useless and death is inevitable, if I have free will I intend to wander into wilderness, stop eating, and let nature take it's course.

Of course, my life may have very different plans for me...

[steerryGritly]

if I have free will I intend to wander into wilderness, stop eating, and let nature take it's course.

I would choose to be cast adrift in a leaky canoe and let what-ever have it's way with the corpse.

[GypeFeeshyTes]

from post #4

A thoughtful reply,but what you write supports my idea that "close one's' actually weaken a person.
If a woman l loved was so terminally sick it would feel 'right' is l could 'pull the plug'. Maybe the last loving thing a person could do.

[heltduell]

There's the story of a particular bed in an intensive care ward in a particular hospital in an African country where patients would inexplicitly die.
An investigation showed that the only plug a cleaner could use was the same one the life-support system was connected to....
So...no problem.
Of course this may be just another Urban Legend...maybe.

[bertanu]

If a woman l loved was so terminally sick it would feel 'right' is l could 'pull the plug'. Maybe the last loving thing a person could do.

Yes, of course frank,

[Centurnion]

from post #6

This is remembering me a short and beautifull novel writen by Hans Ruesh where he, between other things, depicts some aspects of the old innuit culture. In this culture, to die has a moment. People leaves the person who is dying, alone and the dying person takes "again the road to go home" because the Innuits are told that they are here as "visitors", that they do not own the snowlands. They are borrowing the land fron their brother polar bear, brother seal, etc.

It is very curious to note that this is one of the longest cultures of northern hemisphere and they never needed life supporting machines.

The idea of a life supporting machine is a very western one where the concept of death is hold as something painfull and against life. ¿Death against life...? Yes.

In the mayan culture mostly the Chamulas in the Southwestern part of my country there is not a very precise definition of life and death because the mayas think this "reality" is a dream like one. The true reality comes through "good dying" located in the "underworld".

Personally I agree with frank and Pink opinions toward the idea of dying. If I am faced with a kind of terminal illness I will choose to die and not to fight against it.

To live is to learn the eternal "letting go". Just watch ourselves.

[STYWOMBORGOSY]

In spite of my long post previously, I agree that euthanasia should be an option but a very personal option not administered by the society(it is easy to imagine a society could abuse the ability to euthanize people!) in which one lives.

If I am faced with the possibility of prolonged suffering to no avail, both personally and the suffering of my family seeing me suffer, I'm going to do what one of my patients did. She was 104 years old, was bedridden, had all of her faculties, and had become totally dependent on others for all of life's activities. She called her family together for a meeting - I was there to explain the implications of her decision - and anounced that she was going to stop eating and drinking and that she wished to die. This is exactly what she did and her death was very peaceful with the gradual onset of coma due to the effects of severe dehydration. If she was in distress she didn't show it. This took place in a Catholic nursing home in the US.

[Unamannuato]

I agree that euthanasia should be an option but a very personal option not administered by the society(it is easy to imagine a society could abuse the ability to euthanize people!) in which one lives.

Yes, very ture plogsties,

and anounced that she was going to stop eating and drinking and that she wished to die. This is exactly what she did and her death was very peaceful with the gradual onset of coma due to the effects of severe dehydration. If she was in distress she didn't show it. This took place in a Catholic nursing home in the US.

[ENGINESSQ]

I recall in one of Akira Kurosawa's films - an elderly mother telling her son that it was time for him to carry her up to the top of Ancestor Mountain and leave her there before impending winter made it impossible for him to do so...because she knew that it was her time to go. He was reluctant, but mother reminded him that it was his duty, and eventually he carried her up there and left her sitting there among the frozen skeletal corpses of the village's ancestors, all still sitting in the meditation pose among the trees.

In our death-denying culture, this is considered morbid, psychologically unstable, and criminal. If there is a historical basis for this in premodern Japan, it seems very sane to me.

When I was young, in northern Minnesota, in the winter it was common practice to open a window in the bedroom of those who were terminally ill to the point of coma, so that they would develop pneumonia (lung congestion) and die quickly. This was believed to be a kindness.

[BDDkDvgZ]

from post #14

In our death-denying culture, this is considered morbid, psychologically unstable, and criminal.

Yes Pink,

Also I feel that much of the madness of western culture is rooted in this wrong idea of death as oposed to life. Many of our attachments are because this wrong view. The devoutness about keeping youth, our attachment to the physical body, to our work attainments, etc., are a kind of anesthetize from the fact that death is unavoidable.

[sFs4aOok]

I agree that euthanasia should be an option but a very personal option not administered by the society(it is easy to imagine a society could abuse the ability to euthanize people!) in which one lives.

[Seilehogshell]

3 perspectives on Euthanasia in Buddhism:


Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche on Euthanasia:

Question: Rinpoche, what do you think about someone asking
to be killed when he is very sick?

Rinpoche: A bad result would come from that because that
person is experiencing great suffering through his illness but he
still hopes that he might get better and find happiness in the
future. Killing him will be an act done out of ignorance; it would
be killing without being aware that there is still the hope that he
may become free from that suffering. Somebody may be very
depressed and say, "Please kill me." It may seem that killing this
person is beneficial at that moment. But there is always the
opportunity to become cured and to find happiness in the future.
Even though the person had the wish, he might change his mind
as you kill him, "Oh, I think I made a mistake" and then it is too
late.

Question: But there are a lot of cases where people are really
old; it is very certain that they have only two or three months left
and there is no chance that they can recover from cancer or
something else. If they ask for something to kill themselves with,
what should one do?

Rinpoche: They want to die but inside everyone has attachment
to life and still has hope to continue living. For example, there is
a story of an old man who was very ill and felt that it would be
better if he died. He led a long and good life and thought, "It
would be best if I died now." He asked for a divination to see
whether he might die now. They did the divination and the
answer was, "It looks like you are going to die." When he heard
that he was very upset. It would be a bad effect, like from
committing suicide. This person had the knowledge of what
would happen within the next few weeks and a way of avoiding
that experience. With that knowledge, it would not have the bad
effect like suicide.


I have also heard from Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche that when one is suffering at the end of one's life that it is karmic purification. Rinpoche stated that even though it may appear as kindness to end that person's suffering, since the suffering is karmic we cannot actually do so and that by killing the being (animals included) we are prematurely sending the being to the bardo where the karma will continue to ripen. This may cause the karma to ripen in the form of an unfortunate rebirth. We cannot see this and think we are helping the being, but in actuality we are robbing the being of the opportunity to purify negative karma in this life and may be influencing conditions in such a way that the negative karma becomes a cause for an entire life.


I have also heard one of my Drikung Kagyu teachers (can't remember for sure which one) say that the motivation is the most important part of the decision. Of course this makes since from the karma we accrue, but may not account for the effect we're having on this being directly.

[hoconnor6605]

Well said.

[mylittlejewelaa]

One of the great ironies of "Buddhism" as it is popularly engaged is that even though it brings quite a lot of attention to death, it has also fostered a powerful fear of death in many of it's practitioners and has created a arbitrary and delusional perceived division between life and death...casting them as dualistic opposites instead of harmonious aspects of a whole.

[Lauramalina]

Euthenasia wright or wrong? Just follow your heart not the voices in your head

[Aagotiq]

casting them as dualistic opposites instead of harmonious aspects of a whole.

I my personal case thorugh "buddhism" I have understood life and death not as oposites but as life is dying and dying is life...

But anyway, why you state, dear Pink, that Buddhism has encourage in their practitioners to have fear of death?