[easypokergonj]

What are your personal views on birth control and abortion ?

[spacecrafty]

Hi Aloka,

I have some questions in relation to your question.

If leaving the Bardo state the mindstream enters a new womb, is it then karma that the recipent would choose to have an abortion? And whose karma is it, the individual who has the abortion or the the one who is aborted? Or perhaps it is collective karma?

On a personal level I do not believe in abortion as it is taking a life and I do not have the right to make that kind of decision.

Metta,
Gail

[gooseCile]

If reproduction is unwanted, then don't have intercourse. Treat the itch, rather than the effect that comes from scratching the itch. Or, there are other ways to bond sexually without inseminating the womb. Then there's no need for birth control or abortion (except in the case of rape and when the mother's life is endangered).

If unwanted reproduction happens, then have a healthy birth and if necessary find a good home for the child.

Our modern culture, alienated from seasonal breeding tides, has convinced ourselves that the agitating itch is a "need". We've created a "need" in the mind complete with narratives that would have us believe that we're not whole and can't be happy unless we're regularly and reactively scratching that agitating itch for our entire life - even though common sense tells us that the more we scratch it physically and mentally, the more habitually agitated it becomes. We consider ourselves to be sexually liberated, but when examined closely, it begins to look more like slavery.

Elder cultures reserved breeding for breeding seasons, and by doing so, channeled the energy behind that itch into the common good, while carefully managing population in balance with the limits and boundaries of the natural world.

[Moupponge]

I have some questions in relation to your question.

If leaving the Bardo state the mindstream enters a new womb, is it then karma that the recipent would choose to have an abortion? And whose karma is it, the individual who has the abortion or the the one who is aborted? Or perhaps it is collective karma?

Hiya Gail,

I'm really sorry but I can't answer your questions because I'm unwilling to speculate about what happens to people after death, or about their karma.

Buddha said :

There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

" **The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...**

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

AN 4.77 URL
Also, the Buddha didn't teach about Bardo and its only taught in Tibetan Buddhism . Its not recognised by other traditions. The Bardo teachings were composed by Padmasambhava, an Indian teacher who went to Tibet around the ninth century.


Kind wishes to you,


Aloka

[WaydayNef]

We consider ourselves to be sexually liberated, but when examined closely, it begins to look more like slavery.

Nice post Pink.

Personally, I think one cannot find a position of 'truth' in the mundane realm.

I certainly cannot disagree with what you said above. Birth control has nurtured some hungry ghost & hell realms.

But I also think birth control has created more love & intimacy between men & women, in those partners who can manage their relationship more wisely.

Men have learned more love but possibly at the diminishing of woman's innate wisdom.

The mothers of former years with upright moral qualities are certainly more difficult to find. Often, women have become "wishy washy" in their outer values, inwardly hoping for male morals & commitment but outwardly playing the sexual card.

However, men learning more love leads to less violence, less wars, more considerate thinking.

Also, many innately weaker women have not suffered from the hardship of multiple pregnancies.

Personally, I find birth control a fascinating evolution of psycho/technological development. It has certainly changed the psychological make up of human beings.

Most could not even imagine life & what they would be without it.

[neonasafluni]

Also, many innately weaker women have not suffered from the burden of multiple pregnancies.

For example, my mother always had a very strong control over the sexuality in her marriage.

I would guess this is due to her childhood experiences.

From what she has told me, when she was a child, the family slept in one room and when her father came home drunk late at night, he would always slyly demand & have sex with his wife.

My mother's mother had eighteen children, eight of which passed away near birth. Her mother also passed away at a relatively young age.

I think there are benefits & there a dangers of birth control.

[masaredera]

Interesting topic Aloka-D!

I have no issues of birth control such as condoms, pills and other pre-fertilisation techniques.

I do find abortion very difficult to contemplate however, I am pro-life and this has led to many heated discussions. Of course the one thing I cannot argue with is the right to abortion of a woman who is raped. I understand why the mother would not want to keep the child.

Another area I have been thinking about recently is the morning after pill which is taken after unprotected sex or an accident i.e. a condom splitting.

In my mind after an egg has been fertilised it is a life. Obviously most methods of birth control are not 100% safe and therefore pregnancy can occur even when people have tried to be safe.

Is this just life finding its way?

[Ikrleprl]

I'm not opposed to methods of birth control but I think abortion is the taking of a life. Although the question of when does a single cell dividing become an actual being is hard to analyze, any textbook on embryology will tell you that, at six weeks, all the organ systems have been formed. Arguing that a six week old fetus is "not a person" is self-serving un-truth used to justify the act of abortion. The more humane thing to do, in my view, is bear the child to term and give it up for adoption (especially in an age in which infertility is becoming more common, for various reasons). As stated, I agree that a pregnancy resulting from rape may have to be looked at differently although it is still the taking of a life.

I see abortion as one manifestation of the extreme egocentrism that I see everywhere. "The end justifies the means" may apply here as well.

My feelings are not based on any religious exposure I may have had.

[tussinelde]

Buddha is that which is neither one nor the other of a thing, a state or a
conditon. The ancients coined a word for it, calling it "the above oppsite"
In this manner one will gradually get rid oft he habit of gving "things" a name or identifyiing with them.. (German: Das Übergegensätzliche).

Allis

You are using a unique and not-agreed-upon re-definition of "Buddha".

Whatever "ancients" you refer to (much better to cite sources) are certain not the man we call the Buddha, who did not teach any of what you are claiming here. The Buddha certainly and indisputably did use language and "giving things a name" to convey his insights to others, and quite successfullyl.

[ImapFidaarram]

What are your personal views on birth control and abortion ?

Birth control is a very good thing. We need to control out population before it gets out of hand....um...I mean.....


Abortion is a most unfortunate thing. It is a very prolific source of dukkha. One should avoid it as skillfuly as possible.

[Info-phone]

My thoughts are that birth control has liberated women. How many women throughout the world would have prefered a different life being able to make wider choices about their lives and being able to decide whether to have children or not?

Abortion should be avoided of course... but I don't think, for example, that a 12 year old girl who's been gang-raped by boys on her way home from school, should be expected to go ahead with a pregnancy.

[jackie Obrian]

Interestingly, in the past it was usually men who made the rules and decisions about this kind of thing rather than women being allowed to decide for themselves.

Imo, men's domination of the rules of procreation is a relatively new development in the human community. Prior to the industrial revolution and the urbanization/factory-ization of the human community, before thousands of years of women-possessed herblore was lost and replaced with the male-possessed medical institution - women commonly had the knowledge and means by which to prevent or terminate pregnancy...openly before the male ascendency became institutionalized, and secretly for awhile during the transition.

[Ervntewc]

Hi PT,

I deleted that part of my post, but must have been doing it at the same time you were writing yours.

Regarding herblore, we can't really say with any certainty whether it worked for women or not.

Re the part I deleted, I was thinking particularly about how, up till a couple of generations ago here in the UK, unmarried women who were pregnant were considered to be in disgrace by their male dominated families and communities and they endured much suffering being sent away to have their babies - which were often adopted and never seen again, because the mothers had no way of being able to earn a living as well as care for a new baby. This meant that they suffered because of the stigma imposed by society as well as because of the loss of the child.

That sort of thing still happens even at the present time. I knew a woman who was working as a teaching assistant in a school where I was teaching, who had been totally rejected together with her son, by titled, rich parents, because of producing an "illegitimate" child.

[Guloqkcm]

I knew a woman who was working as a teaching assistant in a school where I was teaching, who had been totally rejected together with her son, by titled, rich parents, because of producing an "illegitimate" child.

As if any child is "illegitimate". The more I know about people, the more I like cats.

This reminds me of a drama taking place here in the U.S. - two Catholic schools have each expelled a child when they found out that the children's parents are same gendered. Apparently these children are also "illegitimate" in some way.

[Fekliopas]

This reminds me of a drama taking place here in the U.S. - two Catholic schools have each expelled a child when they found out that the children's parents are same gendered. Apparently these children are also "illegitimate" in some way

Unfortunately senseless prejudice still prevails in many places.

I doubt that would have happened at the last Catholic school I taught at - because there were several gay and lesbian staff and the head teacher was lesbian. However, majority parental views and those of priests and bishop can often prevail in these circumstances.

The 'illegitimate' word wouldn't have worked there though, since many of the pupils were from one- parent unmarried mothers who'd been deserted by the fathers.

The more I know about people, the more I like cats.

I'm pretty fond of cats myself

[GinaGomesz]

from post #15

Yeah a very sad world eh.
What's that verse in the Dhammapada about hatred can never overcome hatred.

[Deribasov]

Regarding herblore, we can't really say with any certainty whether it worked for women or not

Without a doubt it worked,and still does in many parts of Asia.
I agree with what you write in #16. about a 12 year old girl. I would extend this to include where tests show the foetus is terrible deformed.
Maybe before WW1 women had more in the way of reproductive rights.

[arindiruppyr]

Surely fertility and abortion are choices women must make for themselves. Pregnency and its effects, i.e. birth or otherwise affect more than just the baby or the mother, it is about both and, to some extent, the wider community in which they exist. Each woman must make their choices based on their own beliefs and values and the things they wish to achieve. Many would see child birth as an achievement and some may not, but it must be a personal choice.

Your original post was asking for views on both. Personally i think birth control is a good thing and has not only allowed women to control their own fertility but also helped to control the population of the world. In terms of abortion, again i feel this is the womans choice and from my point of view a life is not a life unitil it is capable of sustaining itself; i.e. at a point where it would survive independantly of either the mother or technology. I appreciate this may be a controversial view and mean no offence by it.

Namaste

[Crundaangerge]

Birth control techniques are needed in a country like the one in wich I live. Here poverty is extended all along the country with many children living in very bad conditions not to say women worsened if they are from indigenous populations.

Abortion is a very tough issue to discuss. Even when I am against killing there are conditions when abortion is an absolut need for the woman but the "relative" sexual freedom can end in a series of abotions (one or more) in the case of some women that get pregnant just because the exitment of the moment.

But this last case is a kind of ethical issue for her and her family and for this last cases, here we have a Catholic organization that prevents abortion. It takes the woman who has been thrown away from her home and supports her pregnancy in the idea that she will give her baby in addoption. But if she wants to keep her baby after the childbirth the baby is kept with her. Mean while the woman has gotten a job so to have the means to rise her child.

In this country, with exception of Mexico City, abortion is not allowed so the woman who commits abortion is send to jail.

About what Element has posted in #5, there is in the prision system where I work a kind of new program that gives the inmates the chance to rise their children up to 8 years old if they were pregnant at the moment of their reclusion. This has dinimished the violent climate that was usual between jailers and female inmates.

We have a kindergarden that is administrated by the same inmates and supported by the work they do in prision for some maquila industry. Also the female inmates have the chance to get pregnant while being in prision. This has had good effects in the decrese of violence in the prision.

[grattperret]

In terms of abortion, again i feel this is the womans choice and from my point of view a life is not a life unitil it is capable of sustaining itself; i.e. at a point where it would survive independantly of either the mother or technology

What age is that for a human child?