[mXr8icOB]

I don't come forward with this out of any disrespect to Buddhism or the Pali Canon. I come at it out of a need to understand - possibly how one should view the Pali Canon, how one may see it in it's cultural context.

I'm learning and seeking. I've been reading through the Digha Nikaya and came across this part from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta:

how are we to conduct ourselves, lord with regard to womandkind?
'as not seeing them, Ananda'
'But if we should see them, what are we to do?'
'No talking, Ananda.'
'But if they should speak to us, lord, what are we to do?'
'Keep wide awake, Ananda. I typed that out from the translation I was reading - but you can read another translation here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....1-6.vaji.html after the four places of pilgrimage.

How should one view this text which I see as completely primitive.

I'm not ready to throw out the whole text. There's been a lot of good I've got out of it.

I must make it known again - I am not attacking Buddhism. I am trying to understand it better.

[casinobonbone]

Seems that is is about an instruction for celibacy practice for monks, but I don't know. What I know is that, actually, relationships between nuns and monks is different as that of monks and lay women where monks can see, talk and teach the Dhamma.

But...

It will be interesting to know the opinion of other members.

[ROYMANgo]

Hi gerrardthor,

A quick check of your source seems to show that firstly your quote is from a section about going on pilgrimage and Ananda was asking for instructions about how he and other monks should behave in the presence of women, - presumably when the monks are away on a pilgrimage.

The instructions don't seem so outrageous when one considers that monks in modern times can be tempted to give up their celibacy and their robes in order to have sexual relationships with women. They are also not supposed to be alone with a woman.

Celibacy isn't a practice which is exclusive to Buddhist monks either, there are also celibate Christian monks who live in monastic communities and avoid socialising with women.

Kind regards

Aloka

[mirzaterak]

For me, it is not a gender specific issue ... by this I mean, it is just as relevantly and accurately applicable to celibate woman in regard to men and same gender interactions between individuals.

[Asianunta]

For me, it is not a gender specific issue ... by this I mean, it is just as relevantly and accurately applicable to celibate woman in regard to men and same gender interactions between individuals.

Yes, the same applies for nuns too.

[RooxiaNof]

As others already said, the advice is for sense restraint. The Buddha advised Ananda to engage with the opposite sex only when required to and to maintain mindfulness at the sense bases when engaging.

Mental development is a very subtle and delicate practice. This is why the 8-fold path starts with sila (morality) and then gradually develops samadi (concentration and stillness) through which wisdom arises.

Casual chitter chatter and eye contact with a woman or a man provide more opportunity for arousing desire and engaging in acts which obstruct sila and samadhi. A monk needs solitude. It is easier to tame the mind when there are less distractions. This is why a monk leaves the lay life and goes into seclusion in the first place.

I think this is a good piece of advice even today, not just for monks but also for lay people of any gender. It is best to engage with anyone of any gender mindfully at any level.

[seperalem]

That is well captured Deshy ... thank you.

[WeightWatchyshow]

I think the passage in question is problematic; we see the advice proceed thusly:

1. Do not see women
2. Do not talk to women
3. Be wide awake

But those first two ideas contradict the last: just avoid, just avoid - a popular brahmanical approach, but in the struggle against unwholesome thoughts the Buddha says that ignoring them is only one method among five (MN 20), and certainly not the first one to try. The progression there goes as follows:

A. Attend to a different, wholesome theme.
B. Scrutinize the drawbacks of the unwholesome.
C. Pay no attention.
D. Relax the thought-fabrication.
E. Crush mind with mind.

1 and 2, above, are C, while 3 is a mix of A/B. Now, in the Bharadvaja Sutta we find King Udena talking with the Ven. Pindola Bharadvaja on this very subject. There, three solutions are also proferred:

1. See women as ones mother/sisters/daughters, according to age.
2. Body foulness meditation.
3. Guard sense faculties.

1 evokes metta, which matches A. 2 evokes the recognition of drawbacks, which is B. And, 3 matches both, which is why the King is satisfied with this response and not those first two. So in this case too the final solution is best, but in this Sutta "pay no attention" isn't even brought up. In Ananda's case that is the first go-to method, and it's even repeated.

---

There are asavas to be abandoned by avoiding, per MN 2, but women are not singled out. I conclude that the Digha Nikaya advice is anemic and probably late; there are much better pieces of advice in the Suttas on this topic, ones such as those above which are much more in accord with the gradual training and knowledge & vision than the seemingly brahmanical preference for ritual avoidance.

imo

[gWhya5ct]

Hi Gerrardthor

I think the reason Buddha said this was not do disrespect the woman but to make it more easy for the monks who should think about the teachings and not get attachments to feelings for woman.

As far as i know"from talking to monks" they can talk and look at a woman but a monk seldom say things if he or she is not asked something.
And when Buddha said Keep wide awake, he meant pay attention to what she say, but dont let you self astray from teachings,

The thinker

[aaafluochugh]

I think the passage in question is problematic; we see the advice proceed thusly:

1. Do not see women
2. Do not talk to women
3. Be wide awake

But those first two ideas contradict the last: just avoid, just avoid...

Personally, I see nothing problematic or contradictory in the passage.

For a monk, in training, there is no need to [want to] see women or [to want to] talk to women.

Ananda asks: "What about women?" and Buddha replies: "What about them? Why should you be interested in them? Your question is non-sequitur."

Then Ananda asks: "But what if we must communicate with them?" Buddha replies in a simple common sense manner: "Be mindful; practise the ordinary path."

[encumeterz]

I conclude that the Digha Nikaya advice is anemic and probably late; there are much better pieces of advice in the Suttas on this topic, ones such as those above which are much more in accord with the gradual training and knowledge & vision than the seemingly brahmanical preference for ritual avoidance.

I think you have a point here. I agree that the flavor of the advice is somewhat Brahmanical and there is the possibility of a late addition.

However, another possibility is, from the last sentence "Keep wide awake, Ananda" I feel that the Buddha merely answered what was asked from the perspective of sense restraint. Imo, the advice is not to avoid women but to avoid casual eye contact and general banter. There is a difference between ignoring and engaging only when required to, with mindfulness.

There are asavas to be abandoned by avoiding, per MN 2, but women are not singled out.

In this phrase, women are not necessarily singled out but the answer was for the question asked from the perspective of the person who asked it. The context is important too.

[Liskaspexia]

There are asavas to be abandoned by avoiding, per MN 2, but women are not singled out.

Many men have disrobed due to attraction to women. Women, in relation to the goal of a monk, does receive a mention in MN 67

I conclude that the Digha Nikaya advice is anemic and probably late; there are much better pieces of advice in the Suttas on this topic, ones such as those above which are much more in accord with the gradual training and knowledge & vision than the seemingly brahmanical preference for ritual avoidance.

Were Brahmins were generally celibate?

As for the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, it is a very long discourse, so naturally it is found in the Digha Nikaya. Further, as it is a third party account of the Buddha's last days, it is naturally 'late'.

However, unlike much of the Digha Nikaya, there is no evidence it has Brahmanical themes. The Mahaparinibbana Sutta contains many important pure teachings & many foundational teachings of the Buddha-Dhamma.

Regards

[Wvq9InTM]

Were Brahmins were generally celibate?

Celibacy does appear in Hindu traditions. Anyway, Brahmin/Hindu society considered women as inferior and sometimes as mere possessions. There are accounts of this society alienating women specially from the spiritual paths. Not surprisingly, there are jataka tales where husbands sell out wives to fulfil a 'noble quest'. Considering this background, it is a fair doubt if these lines, which are late, are actually Buddhavacana.

However, I do agree that there doesn't seem to be any evidence to make a definite conclusion. In addition, it seems like good advice to all genders although it has been spoken from the perspective of a bhikku rather than a bhikkuni depending on the context.

[LINETFAD]

Being a normal male it is good to listen to Buddhos advice or if you are strong in watchung yourself just look and don`t let these feelings arise.
Just think that they consist of the same matter and we make a difference out of everything where there is not as much as we think.
anando