[fkisjjdhh]

What are your ideas concerning it?

Do we need it - is dry insight enough?

What should we do to achieve it?

[Manteiv]

There are atleast 3 kinds of enlightenments.
1. Samatha lead vipassana.
2. Vipassana lead samatha.
3. Both vipassana and samatha go together.

Jhana is a tool to develope samatha and vipassana, especially samatha.
The first kind of enlightenment do jhana atleast level 2 and use it for vipassana.
The second kind do vipassana but jhana arise not much.
The third kind like the second but jhana arise a lot more.

If we try jhana and found that we can not attend at least level 2. This mean, we should give a priority to vipassana. Anyway we still keep jhana.

[hrotedk]

is dry insight enough

Sorry Sriv, but what is "dry insight"?

[fkisjjdhh]

what is "dry insight"?

The opposite of wet insight ? ?

[moopogyOvenny]

from post #4

Oh yes, it happens when I sweat during zazen...

[Cogebrego]

Ajahn Sumedho teaches that the Jhanic states are natural when we are truly mindful


This morning I was talking to Venerable Subbato and he was saying he never has developed anapanasati, mindfulness of the breath. So I said, 'Can you be mindful of one inhalation?' And he said, 'Oh yes.' 'And of one exhalation?' And he said, 'Yes.' And I said, 'Got it!'

There's nothing more to it than that. However, one tends to expect to develop some special kind of ability to go into some special state. And because we don't do that, then we think we can't do it.

But the way of the spiritual life is through renunciation, relinquishment, letting go not through attaining or acquiring. Even the jhanas [1] are relinquishments rather than attainments. If we relinquish more and more, letting go more and more, then the jhanic states are natural. http://www.pathandfruit.com/Articles...One_Breath.htm



As far as I can see we practice morality in order to have a more "balanced" mind less caged by sensual infatuation etc. This then leads to easier development of mindfulness. This then leads to the abandoning of the hindrances, since during sati you dont hold or repel and to abandon something you dont get rid of it or hold it but just notice it then let it go.

Once the hindrances are abandoned then the Jhanic states arises naturally, since they are defined as arising when the hindrances are let go off. This then leads to more powerful concentration and apprehension of the way it is, namely anicca, dukkha and anatta which then leads to an understanding of the four noble truths, this insight then leads to dis-passion in regard to dhammas and then non-attachment, nibbana

In essence they are a natural outcome of the practice of letting go


thats my understanding anyway


metta

[MediconStop]

"Monks, there are these five hindrances. Which five? Sensual desire as a hindrance, ill will as a hindrance, sloth & drowsiness as a hindrance, restlessness & anxiety as a hindrance, and uncertainty as a hindrance. These are the five hindrances.

"To abandon these five hindrances, one should develop the four frames of reference. Which four? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. To abandon the five hindrances, one should develop these four frames of reference." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....064.than.html

[HedoShoodovex]

Sorry Sriv, but what is "dry insight"?

Essentially a path which requires (if at all) only a minimal about of mental tranquility but is concerned primarily with vipassana.

[conurgenceDen]

There are atleast 3 kinds of enlightenments.
1. Samatha lead vipassana.
2. Vipassana lead samatha.
3. Both vipassana and samatha go together.

Very interesting sukitlek. Thanks for that.

[wbondarmunw]

from post #8

Thanks Sriv,

I am not a Jhana practitioner but I feel that a minimal amount of mental tranquility, a real one, is a great step toward more deep meditative stages or even to bring that minimal amount into daily life sounds realy encouraging.

[lrtoinbert]

Once the hindrances are abandoned then the Jhanic states arises naturally

Thanks clw. To what extent do you think the hindrances need to be first abandoned before Jhana may be pursued with any chance of success?

[Oswczrdz]

from post #11

BUddhadasa Bhikkhu's book Anapanasati: Mindfulness With Breathing is an excellent source for the information you seek. It is available in .pdf form, though the last four chapters were lost by the original publisher and are missing. They can be obtained, though, in the Buddhadasa Yahoo! Group files section.

[expabsPapsgag]

Thanks stuka. I'll have to follow that up when I get the time. Do you follow these instructions?

[blohannaserri]

I am not a Jhana practitioner but I feel that a minimal amount of mental tranquility, a real one, is a great step toward more deep meditative stages or even to bring that minimal amount into daily life sounds realy encouraging.

I think that's the key thing Kaarine. Bringing that tranquillity into everyday life will slowly bring about a transformation in ourselves and the way we relate to others.
It's a kind of tension release and with it anger and so forth fall away.

In terms of meditation, tranquility is a step towards deeper meditative stages.

[Vapepreab]

Anyone heard of the Jhana deep versus Jhana light debate?

Just thought I'd ask. Any opinions?

The leading exponent of the Jhana deep school is the ex-pat (virtually deified in OZ) Brit Ajahn Brahm.

Check out his take on the factors of all Jhanas (including the first)
The Five Senses are Fully Shut Off. Another strange quality that distinguishes Jhana from all other experiences is that within Jhana all the five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one cannot smell, taste nor feel touch. One cannot hear the sound of the birds, nor a person coughing. Even if there were a thunderclap nearby, it wouldn't be heard in a Jhana. If someone tapped one on the shoulder, or picked one up and let one down, in Jhana one cannot know this. The mind in Jhana is so completely cut off from these five senses that they cannot break in.*

* Although sound can disturb the first Jhana, the fact is that when one perceives the sound, one is no longer in Jhana. His famous anecdote:


A lay disciple once told me how he had "fluked" a deep Jhana while meditating at home. His wife thought he had died and sent for an ambulance. He was rushed to hospital in a wail of loud sirens. In the emergency room, there was no heartbeat registered on the E.C.G., nor brain activity to be seen by the E.E.G. So the doctor on put defibrillators on his chest to reactivate his heart. Even though he was being bounced up and down on the hospital bed through the force of the electric shocks, he didn't feel a thing! When he emerged from the Jhana in the emergency room, perfectly all right, he had no knowledge of how he had got there, nor of ambulances and sirens, nor of body-jerking defibrillators. All that long time that he was in Jhana, he was fully aware, but only of bliss. This is an example of what is meant by the five senses shutting down within the experience of Jhana. Get the picture.



· SUMMARY OF THE LANDMARKS OF ALL JHANAS

It is helpful to know, then, that within a Jhana:

1. There is no possibility of thought;

2. No decision making process is available;

3. There is no perception of time;

4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;

5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn't move; and

6. The five senses are fully shut off, and only the sixth sense, mind, is in operation. http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Bo...The_Jhanas.htm

Now does this accord with the factors of Jhana, as listed in the suttas? Some say it doesn't. What do you guys think:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....111.than.html

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' Doesn't look like the same thing Ajahn Brahm is describing. We see contact, feeling and perception listed in the sutta rather than a complete shut off of the five senses.

This total shut off is equated with the formless states, in particular with the "cessation of feeling & perception" as its name implies.

Thus Jhana Deep and Jhana Light.

Any thoughts?

[noingenah]

from post #14

Thanks Sriv for your kind feedback...

[Maribellin]

Thus Jhana Deep and Jhana Light

Yes.. Jhana light arise before total shut off. Somebody can not do total shutoff because they was not left their mind from five senses. For example anapanasati. If we go to some step and we were not left the breath, we could not pass that step. Or somebody move their mind to tour outside, also can not total shut off.

[WaydayNef]

clw_uk #6:
Once the hindrances are abandoned then the Jhanic states arises naturally

Thanks clw. To what extent do you think the hindrances need to be first abandoned before Jhana may be pursued with any chance of success?

completely abandoned since they weaken awareness/concentration

Once abandoned the mind is no longer "clouded" and the jhana is the natural state that follows. In my opinion the biggest problem is mediators wanting to attain jhanas.

This is becasuse, based on my reading of suttas, teachings from Ajahns and experience, means they will never experience them** as the jhanas come through letting go not through gaining things or removing them but by abandoning them


To abandon you dont grap or avert but be fully mindful in the present moment and notice/observe, let it pass naturally




** Of course jhanas can happen by "accident". For example the buddha entering into a jhanic state when he was a child. This story is also noteworthy since it seems to say that the Buddha wasnt wanting jhanas, he just relaxed into full awareness and let the hindrances go, leading to jhana


metta

[neictscek]

from post #15

As usual, Brahmavamso is bullshitting his way through the parts of the Dhamma he doesn't understand.

Take a look at this gem, from the same book:

NIBBANA, THE END OF All PERCEPTION

For within the perception of neither perception nor no-perception lies the end of all perception, the cessation of all that is felt or perceived, Nibbana. If the mind attends to this, the mind stops. When the mind starts again one gains the attainment of Arahant or Anagami, these are the only possibilities.

So, according to Brahmavamso's definition here, all we need to attain Nibbana is a hefty dose of propofol or ketmine, or perhaps a bullet to the head. It's asinine.

[neictscek]

I've had this book ' Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond ' for a while and I confess I still haven't read beyond the second chapter. I skimmed through some of the rest of the book and all its many descriptions of the jhanas, some of the details of which seem..well..unusual ...

...An example p.154 " A lay disciple once told me how completely by chance he had fallen into a deep jhana while meditating at home. His wife thought he had died and sent for an ambulance... etc etc" - sounded rather like my experience of a heavy morphine haze after returning to consciousness after an operation I once had.

I wondered also if he was subtly claiming a version of enlightenment himself to be quite honest.