[accelieda]

To my ears, the translation of the samuppada as "arising motion" is still quite removed from "occurring simultaneously",

Some things arise (based on their causes & conditions) quickly. Other things arise slowly. The man here is having difficulties due to a lack of comprehension. The man here is caught up in philosophy and projecting that philosophical outlook onto Buddhadasa. To break this rigid kind of thinking & conditioning, it is best to quote another teacher:

We don't understand the Dhamma and so we don't understand these sankharas; we take them to be ourselves, as belonging to us or belonging to others. This gives rise to clinging. When clinging arises, "becoming" follows on. Once becoming arises, then there is birth. Once there is birth, then old age, sickness, death... the whole mass of suffering arises. This is the Paticcasamuppada. 9 We say ignorance gives rise to volitional activities, they give rise to consciousness and so on. All these things are simply events in mind. When we come into contact with something we don't like, if we don't have mindfulness, ignorance is there. Suffering arises straight away. But the mind passes through these changes so rapidly that we can't keep up with them. It's the same as when you fall from a tree. Before you know it — "Thud!" — you've hit the ground. Actually you've passed many branches and twigs on the way but you couldn't count them, you couldn't remember them as you passed them. You just fall, and then "Thud!"

Ajahn Chah It's likewise with the teaching of dependent origination (paticca-samuppāda): deluded understanding (avijjā) is the cause and condition for the arising of volitional kammic formations (sankhāra); which is the cause and condition for the arising of consciousness (viññāna); which is the cause and condition for the arising of mentality and materiality (nāma-rūpa), and so on, just as we've studied in the scriptures. The Buddha separated each ]This is an accurate description of reality, but when this process actually occurs in real life the scholars aren't able to keep up with what's happening. It's like falling from the top of a tree to come crashing down to the ground below. We have no idea how many branches we've passed on the way down. [/b]Similarly, when the mind is suddenly hit by a mental impression, if it delights in it, then it flies off into a good mood. It considers it good without being aware of the chain of conditions that led there. The process takes place in accordance with what is outlined in the theory, but simultaneously it goes beyond the limits of that theory.

Ajahn Chah Unshakeable Peace

[KaterinaNJq]

It appears that drawing an argument on account of this in favour of co-temporality of the arising of all nidanas is a bit of a stretch and I haven't yet come across any sutta that spells this out.

Most of the suttas spell it out like this. For example the follow sutta has the links of dependent origination either arising or ceasing when the eye sees the form:

On seeing a form with the eye, he is passionate for it if it is pleasing; he is angry with it if it is displeasing. He lives with mindfulness to the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand realistically the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels - whether pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful - he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding on to it. As he does so, delight (nandi) arises in him. Now,delight in feelings (vedanàsu nandi) is clinging (upàdàna). Becoming is conditioned by his clinging; becoming conditions birth; birth conditions ageing-&-death; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to be. Thus is the arising of this entire mass of suffering.

"On seeing a form with the eye, he is not passionate for it if it is pleasing; he is not angry at it if it is displeasing. He lives with attention to body established, with an immeasurable mind and he understands realistically the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels - whether pleasant or painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful - he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. From the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; from the cessation of clinging, the cessation of becoming; from the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth; from the cessation of birth, ageing-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering.

Mahàtanhàsankhaya Sutta

[Phassetus]

The following sutta is clear:

Idha bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto rūpaṃ attato samanupassati.

Yā kho pana sā, bhikkhave, samanupassanā saṅkhāro so.

So pana saṅkhāro kiṃnidāno kiṃsamudayo kiṃjātiko kiṃpabhavo?

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā; tatojo so saṅkhāro.

Iti kho, bhikkhave, sopi saṅkhāro anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno. Sāpi taṇhā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā. Sāpi vedanā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā. Sopi phasso anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno. Sāpi avijjā aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā .

There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person [putthujano] — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self.

That assumption is a fabrication.

Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication?

To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person [putthujano], touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that.

And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

Parileyyaka Sutta

Now the quote above used the term 'avijjāsamphassajena', which is 'contact with ignorance' or 'ignorant contact'.

It follows the 1st ]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/img/smilies/grin.gif[/img]

[Idonnaink]

The principal difficulty for the momentary interpretation of dependent origination is to explain how the the nidanas no. 1, 3, 4 and 5 arise momentarily, that is ignorance (avijja), consciousness (vinnana), name-and-form (namarupa, psychophysicality), and the six sense gates (salayatana).

The man here is caught up in materialism & philosophy. This is obvious by the quote below:

If one attempts to analyse this in the style of dependent origination, one can point out a number of supporting conditions for this game, such as the wall, the racket, the swing of the racket, contact of the ball with the surfaces, gravity, elastic properties, mechanical forces, and so on.

Obviously, some of the features of the ball game arise momentarily and are repeated over and over, such as contact of the ball with the wall, contact with the racket, the swing of the racket, and the mechanical forces acting on the ball. Other features, such as the wall, the floor, and the racket are of a more permanent nature.

[gastabegree]

Now, the outrageous claim in Buddhadasa's interpretation is that all conditions are of momentary nature and he makes no distinction between spontaneous and more permanent ones. He states that all twelve nidanas arise in a moment of dukkha. This is a bit like claiming that the wall comes into existence momentarily as the ball makes contact with it, or that the racket comes into existence only when it plays the ball. Just not very intuitive...

The man here is not expressing intuitive wisdom or vipassana & again projecting his mind state upon Buddhadasa.

These are matters of insight or spiritual experience. They are not matters of philosophy. They are known by meditation (although scriptures can explain them).

[weightpillsnow]

The principal difficulty for the momentary interpretation of dependent origination is to explain how the the nidanas no. 1, 3, 4 and 5 arise momentarily, that is ignorance (avijja), consciousness (vinnana), name-and-form (namarupa, psychophysicality), and the six sense gates (salayatana).

Ignorance conditions the other dhammas, like shampoo conditions hair or dye colours cloth, as follows:

"Well, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires and does not know, as it really is, the way of escape from sense-desires that have arisen, then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, nor can he know and see what is to the profit of others, or of both himself and others. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

Sangaravo Sutta 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye badly and be impure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled, an unhappy destination may be expected.

"Monks, suppose a cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye well and be pure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination may be expected.

3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind? (1) Covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4) hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8) jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12) presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity...(16) negligence is a defilement of the mind.

Vatthupama Sutta: The Simile of the Cloth

[Varbaiskkic]

Now, the outrageous claim in Buddhadasa's interpretation is that all conditions are of momentary nature and he makes no distinction between spontaneous and more permanent ones. He states that all twelve nidanas arise in a moment of dukkha. This is a bit like claiming that the wall comes into existence momentarily as the ball makes contact with it, or that the racket comes into existence only when it plays the ball. Just not very intuitive...

There is nothing outrageous or unintuitive about Buddhadasa's interpretation. It accords with the suttas.

When ignorance & defilement cease, the suttas do not state consciousness (vinnana), name-and-form (namarupa, psychophysicality) and the six sense gates (salayatana) also cease.

The Pali word is nirodha. It means for the fires of greed, hatred & delusion to 'extinguish'. It means consciousness, mind-body & the sense spheres 'quench' or 'cool down'. They do not 'cease'.

The word 'cessation' as a translation of 'nirodha' is incorrect. Nirodha means to 'extinguish' or 'quench'.

This is affirmed again in the Upaya Sutta. Here, consciousness does not cease or disappear. Instead, consciousness is purified & liberated.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Upaya Sutta

[hjyAMqqT]

The Upaya Sutta states:

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase & proliferation." This sutta clearly describes how consciousness is stirred up, generated or engaged.

An easy example is when a human being or animal is bored or has sensual desire. They will go searching for an sense object to engage with, with a consciousness, mind-body & sense organs under the influence of ignorance & defilement.

This is how ignorance conditions consciousness, the mind-body & the sense organs in dependent origination. It is straight-forward psychology.

[husartrof]

Please understand that ordinarily our body and mind are not in a condition to experience suffering. There must be ignorance or something to condition it to become receptive to the possibility of suffering. And so it is said that the mind/body only now arises in this case. It means that ignorance conditions consciousness and this consciousness helps the mind/body change and arise to action and become capable of experiencing suffering.

In this kind of mind/body, at this moment, the sense bases arise which are also primed to experience suffering.

So what Buddhadasa describes above is simply what is pictured below:



The cartoon above depicts a body-mind conditioned by ignorance that is ready to make contact with the world in an unskilful way & get burned by suffering.

[Britiobby]

Wow, what an excellent exposition, element!

[DoctorTentonyya]

Interesting thread element, thanks for taking the time to put your material up. I followed the link to 'Bhikkhu Buddhadasa - Anapanasati Mindfulness with Breathing' and very interesting it was too.

[kesFockplek]

Pretty good, huh? Love the illustrations too !

[gennnniiikk]

[quote=srivijaya #31: ]
I followed the ]

SriV

I see a link to the Anapanasati Sutta. Step 4 is calming the kaya sankhara and step 7 & 8 is about the citta sankhara. Also, the factors of jhana vitakka & vicara are the vaci sankkhara.

In the discourses on dependent origination, the sankhara are defined as the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara.

The calming of these sankhara (2nd link of dependent origination) is samatha.

The ending of ignorance (1st link of dependent origination) is vipassana.

This is described in the Rahogata Sutta

"There are these six calmings. When one has attained the first jhana, speech [vaci] has been calmed. When one has attained the second jhana, directed thought & evaluation [vaci sankhara] have been calmed. When one has attained the third jhana, rapture [citta sankhara] has been calmed. When one has attained the fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing [kaya sankhara] has been calmed. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling [citta sankhara] have been calmed. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion [greed] has been calmed, aversion [hatred] has been calmed, delusion [ignorance] has been calmed." As I see it, how ignorance stirs up or conditions the sankhara is the various disturbances experienced in meditation. The sankhara are our objects of meditation.

Kaya sankhara = breathing in & out. Vaci sankhara = thought. Citta sankhara = perception & feeling.

They are defined in this way in the suttas (MN 44).

Dependent origination is a process occurring here & now. If this was not the case, how could ignorance be ended if it is something existing in a past life?

[Sellorect]

Dependent origination is a process occurring here & now. If this was not the case, how could ignorance be ended if it is something existing in a past life?

And there you have it -- spot on!

[StivRichardOff]

Wow, what an excellent exposition, element!

Thank you Stuka, but I am not finished.

There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person [putthujano] — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self.

As you would have seen, the above is a stock phrase in the suttas about certain teachings that were about supramundane dhamma & not spoken to putthujano.

In the Majjhima Nikaya alone, according to the index, dependent origination is mentioned in nine suttas. Each sutta includes teachings on abandoning the doctrine of self & attaining Nibbana (except in MN 98).

This kind of teaching the Buddha did not give to puttjano. It follows dependent origination cannot be about rebirth because the Buddha taught rebirth teachings to what he described as putthujano.

Also, in MN 98, where dependent origination was taught to putthujano, it was taught as understanding how the various orders of beings ("names & clans") arise due to action & results. It was taught here & now.

For name and clan are assigned
As mere designations in the world
Originating in conventions
They are assigned here & now.

For those who do not know this fact
Wrong views have long underlain their hearts
Not knowing, they declare to us
'One is a brahmin by birth'.

One is not a brahmin by birth
Nor by birth a non-brahmin
By action is one a brahmin
By action is one a non-brahmin.

For men are farmers by their acts
And by their acts are craftsmen too
And men are merchants by their acts
And by their acts are servants too.

And men are robbers by the acts
And by their acts are soldiers too
And men are chaplains by their acts
And by their acts are rulers too.

So this is how the truly wise
See action as it really is
Seers of dependent origination
Skilled in actions & results

Action makes the world go round
Action makes this generation turn
Living beings are bound by action
Like the chariot wheel by the linchpin

[osteoftex]

in MN 98, where dependent origination was taught to putthujano, it was taught as understanding how the various orders of beings ("names & clans")

MN 98 above, fits nicely into the definition of birth found in the suttas:

Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति) (the word literally means thus born) is the term used to denote communities and sub-communities in India. It is a term used across religions. In Indian society each jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe, although religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Veera Shaivism) or linguistic groupings define some jatis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (jati) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc. In any given location in India 500 or more jatis may co-exist, although the exact composition will differ from district to district.

This meaning was maintained & included by Buddhaghosa in 500AD in the Vissudhimagga:

Now this word jati has many meanings. For in the passage 'he recollects one birth, two births, etc', it is becoming. In the passage 'Visakha, there is a kind (jati) of ascetics called Niganthas (Jains)', it is monastic order. In the passage 'birth is includes in two aggregates', it is whatever is formed. In the passage 'his birth is due to the first consciousness in the mother's womb' (Vin.i,93), it is rebirth-]. In the passage 'one who is not rejected and despised on the account of birth', it is clan. In the passage 'sister, since i was born with noble birth', it is the Noble One's virtue. MN 98 above, namely "names & clans", also fits nicely into the term 'self-identification' found in MN 44:

"'Self-identification, self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"There are these five aggregates subject to clinging, friend Visakha: form as an aggregate subject to clinging, feeling as an aggregate subject to clinging, perception as an aggregate subject to clinging, fabrications as an aggregate subject to clinging, consciousness as an aggregate subject to clinging. These five aggregates subject to clinging are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification, the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

MN 44

[sleelverrex]

...the above is a stock phrase in the suttas about certain teachings that were about supramundane dhamma & not spoken to putthujano.

Further, below is a wonderful example of dependent origination taught to a putthujano who became arahant. It is without doubt here & now. It was without doubt taught for Nibbana & taught to one who demonstrated an aspiration for Nibbana.



"This verse was stated by earlier worthy ones, fully self-awakened:

Freedom from disease: the foremost good fortune.
Unbinding [Nibbana]: the foremost ease.
The eightfold: the foremost of paths
going to the Deathless, Secure.

"But now it has gradually become a verse of run-of-the-mill people [putthujano].

"This body, Magandiya, is a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction. And yet you say, with reference to this body, which is a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction: 'This is that freedom from disease, master Gotama. This is that Unbinding,' for you don't have the noble vision with which you would know freedom from disease and see Unbinding."

"I'm convinced, master Gotama, that you can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I would know freedom from disease, that I would see Unbinding."

"Magandiya, it's just as if there were a man blind from birth who couldn't see black objects... white... blue... yellow... red... the sun or the moon. His friends, companions, & relatives would take him to a doctor. The doctor would concoct medicine for him, but in spite of the medicine his eyesight would not appear or grow clear. What do you think, Magandiya? Would that doctor have nothing but his share of weariness & disappointment?"

"Yes, master Gotama."

"In the same way, Magandiya, if I were to teach you the Dhamma — 'This is that freedom from disease; this is that Unbinding' — and you on your part did not know freedom from disease or see Unbinding, that would be wearisome for me; that would be troublesome for me."

"I'm convinced, master Gotama, that you can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I would know freedom from disease, that I would see Unbinding."

"Magandiya, it's just as if there were a man blind from birth who couldn't see black objects... white... blue... yellow... red... the sun or the moon. Now suppose that a certain man were to take a grimy, oil-stained rag and fool him, saying, 'Here, my good man, is a white cloth — beautiful, spotless, & clean.' The blind man would take it and put it on.

"Then his friends, companions, & relatives would take him to a doctor. The doctor would concoct medicine for him: purges from above & purges from below, ointments & counter-ointments and treatments through the nose. And thanks to the medicine his eyesight would appear & grow clear. Then together with the arising of his eyesight, he would abandon whatever passion & delight he felt for that grimy, oil-stained rag. And he would regard that man as an enemy & no friend at all, and think that he deserved to be killed. 'My gosh, how long have I been fooled, cheated, & deceived by that man & his grimy, oil-stained rag! — "Here, my good man, is a white cloth — beautiful, spotless, & clean."'

"In the same way, Magandiya, if I were to teach you the Dhamma — 'This is that freedom from Disease; this is that Unbinding' — and you on your part were to know that freedom from Disease and see that Unbinding, then together with the arising of your eyesight you would abandon whatever passion & delight you felt with regard for the five clinging-aggregates. And it would occur to you, 'My gosh, how long have I been fooled, cheated, & deceived by this mind! For in clinging, it was just form that I was clinging to... it was just feeling... just perception... just fabrications... just consciousness that I was clinging to. With my clinging as a requisite condition, there arises becoming... birth... aging & death... sorrow, lamentation, pains, distresses, & despairs. And thus is the origin of this entire mass of stress.'"

"I'm convinced, master Gotama, that you can teach me the Dhamma in such a way that I might rise up from this seat cured of my blindness."

"In that case, Magandiya, associate with men of integrity. When you associate with men of integrity, you will hear the true Dhamma. When you hear the true Dhamma, you will practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. When you practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma, you will know & see for yourself: 'These things are diseases, cancers, arrows. And here is where diseases, cancers & arrows cease without trace. With the cessation of my clinging comes the cessation of becoming. With the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. With the cessation of birth then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

Magandiya Sutta

[tsovimnpb]

...below is a wonderful example of dependent origination taught to a putthujano who became arahant.

So to end, if the former putthujano Magandiya found enlightenment via being cured of his blindness via right understanding, then there is hope for all of us.