[Theateetetuig]

Anyone have further comments on the sutta #1 ?

[ImmitsRom]

Sure. MN 38 is a tremendous sutta. But possibly later.

[AntonioXYZ]

The sutta contains the entirety of the gradual training:

31] "Here, bhikkhus, a Tathagata appears in the world...

32] "A householder or householder's son or one born in some other clan hears that Dhamma. On hearing the Dhamma he acquires faith in the Tathagata. Possessing that faith...

33] "Having thus gone forth and possessing the bhikkhu's training and way of life, abandoning the killing of living beings...the taking of what is not given....incelibacy...false speech...malicious speech...harsh speech... gossip...

"He abstains from injuring seeds and plants. He practices eating only one meal a day, abstaining from eating at night and outside the proper time. He abstains from dancing, singing, music, and theatrical shows. Abstains from wearing garlands, smartening himself with scent, and embellishing himself with unguents. He abstains from high and large couches. He abstains from accepting gold and silver. He abstains from accepting raw grain. He abstains from accepting raw meat. He abstains from accepting women and girls. He abstains from accepting men and women slaves. He abstains from accepting goats and sheep. He abstains from accepting fowl and pigs. He abstains from accepting elephants, cattle, horses, and mares. He abstains from accepting fields and land. He abstains from going on errands and running messages. He abstains from buying and selling. He abstains from false weights, false metals, and false measures. He abstains from cheating, deceiving, defrauding, and trickery. He abstains from wounding, murdering, binding, brigandage, plunder and violence.

34] "He becomes content with robes to protect his body and with alms food to maintain his stomach....

35] "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its signs and features...On hearing a sound with the ear, he does not grasp at its signs and features....nose...tongue...body...mind...

36] "He becomes one who acts in full awareness when going forward and returning; who acts in full awareness when looking ahead and looking away; who acts in full awareness when flexing and extending his limbs...

37] "Possessing this aggregate of noble virtue, and this noble restraint of the faculties, and possessing this noble mindfulness and full awareness, he resorts to a secluded resting place: the forest, the root of a tree, a mountain, a ravine, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle thicket, an open space, a heap of straw.

38] "On returning from his almsround, after his meal he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, setting his body erect, and establishing mindfulness before him. Abandoning covetousness for the world he abides with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Abandoning ill-will and hatred, he abides with a mind free from ill-will, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill-will and hatred. Abandoning sloth and torpor, he abides free from sloth and torpor, percipient of light, mindful and fully aware; he purifies his mind from sloth and torpor. Abandoning restlessness and remorse, he abides unagitated with a mind inwardly peaceful; he purifies his mind from restlessness and remorse. Abandoning doubt, he abides having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind of doubt.

39] "Having thus abandoned these five hindrances... he enters upon and abides in the first jhāna....fourth jhāna...

[toksenveste]

I like the description of the arising of suffering, here:

"On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favoring and opposing, whatever he feels he feels - whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant - he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being [comes to be]; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. For me, it is very here & now.

[Edifsdubs]

And equally the cessation.

Here, the path of practise is described very clearly, very practically.

Just this excerpt, for me, is sufficient guidence for the path.

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder.

Having thus abandoned favoring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of becoming; with the cessation of becoming, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

[duceswild]

And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth.

Subject to birth are these acquisitions and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

MN 26

[Saduyre9de]

Also, this includes a wonderful description of right speech.

(I should read it ).


"Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech; he speaks truth, adheres to truth, is trustworthy and reliable, one who is no deceiver of the world.

Abandoning malicious speech, he abstains from malicious speech; he does not repeat elsewhere what he has heard here in order to divide [those people] from these, nor does he repeat to these people what he has heard elsewhere in order to divide [these people] from those; thus he remains one who reunites those who are divided, a promoter of friendships, who enjoys concord, rejoices in concord, delights in concord, a speaker of words that promote concord.

Abandoning harsh speech, he abstains from harsh speech; he speaks such words as are gentle, pleasing to the ear and loveable, as go to the heart, are courteous, desired by many and agreeable to many.

Abandoning gossip, he abstains from gossip; he speaks at the right time, speaks what is fact, speaks on what is good, speaks on the Dhamma and the Discipline; at the right time he speaks such words as are worth recording, reasonable, moderate and beneficial.

[Espacamlisa]

That's the past; throw out such idle speculation.

How can it be in the past as the deva realm is right now it's closer than your own skin.

[77rexulceme]

from post #28

Frank, I think Sobeh was replying to your comment "of course then we get into the problem of where all this lot started "

[IoninnyHaro]

from posts #23 to #27

Your comments are always helpful for my sutta readings. Thanks a lot for the input, Element.

[Pvfcadbh]

And what, bhikkhus, are the devas of the gandhabba order?

the problem of where all this lot started

That's the past; throw out such idle speculation.

Frank, I think Sobeh was replying to your comment "of course then we get into the problem of where all this lot started "

I was referring to Elements comment (#!12)

Who was it who said "if we forget the past we will relive it"

Only by thinking we are separate from the universe will we think of such elements as Devas as "idle speculation".

A tad arrogant eh?

[yespkorg]

I was referring to Elements comment (#!12)
Who was it who said "if we forget the past we will relive it"
Only by thinking we are separate from the universe will we think of such elements as Devas as "idle speculation".
A tad arrogant eh?

Hi Frank, I'm now completely lost altogether I'm afraid.

I think it might be worthwhile me mentioning at this point in time that we're all free to express our own interpretations of texts in the discussions, even if they differ from the mainstream interpretations.
Additionally, belief in rebirth and in other realms is not mandatory for membership of BWB.
(Also always good to remember to address the points raised and not get personal about the person raising them.)

Thanks, and many apologies to all for the interruption !

[roundman]

Returning to the sutta again, I like this part:

]23. "Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way, would you run back to the past thus: 'Were we in the past? Were we not in the past? What were we in the past? How were we in the past? Having been what, what did we become in the past?'?"

- "No venerable sir." -

"Knowing and seeing in this way, would you run forward to the future thus: 'Shall we be in the future? Shall we not be in the future? What shall we be in the future? How shall we be in the future? Having been what, what shall become in the future?'?"

- "No, venerable sir." -

"Knowing and seeing in this way, would you now be inwardly perplexed about the present thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?'?" -"No, venerable sir."

[MannoFr]

I like this part

Yes, but why in particular?

[Nosmas]

Yes, but why in particular?

Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be.



"And what are dependently co-arisen phenomena? (Katame ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā?)

Aging & death are dependently co-arisen phenomena: inconstant; compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation.

"Birth is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Becoming is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Clinging/sustenance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Craving is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Feeling is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Contact is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"The six sense media are dependently co-arisen phenomena...

"Name-&-form is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Consciousness is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon...

"Fabricators are dependently co-arisen phenomena...

"Ignorance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation. These are called dependently co-arisen phenomena.



SN 12.20

[Xtatotvk]

Yes, but why in particular?

Because this section follows the passage on cessation and for me it seems relevant to present moment non-conceptual awareness.

[soydaykam]

Comments on the sutta anyone ?

An excellent sutta. I must say that I sympathise with the beleaguered bhikkhu Sāti and it would be false to claim that I have not also considered things from that point of view. A belief in self is something that runs deep and is not lightly dismissed. It is the articulation of the process of becoming, a kind of logical conclusion.

In countering this premise, the sutta does a great job of clarifying dependent origination. We can juxtapose the premise of a transmigrating awareness against the statement that "consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises".

This means, that no consciousness, separate from its object, can ever be established. All facets of awareness, however we designate them, arise within the process of dependent origination.

In other words, there is no 'being' driving this - no 'thing' outside the process to be rescued or liberated. And that's a tough cookie for anyone to swallow, I figure.

Ignorance is the culprit which powers the process. Comprehending and seeing this is the key to deactivating the thing, to switching the lights off once and for all, as I understand it (please correct me, if I'm wrong here).

It concludes:
but remember the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, as caught up in a vast net of craving, in the trammel of craving. And me too, still hanging in there with him

[StanWatts]

sukitlek #6: gandhabba (consciousness of the unborn being)

How is this reconciled with the sutta, which states:
...

Sorry for lately post. Sometime I spend more time to understand English sentense.

I think the consciousness in gandhabba and in the states (...) are the same but different view.

In gandhabba may view in the term of supporting, like this :-

viññāṇa-ṭṭhiti: 'abodes or supports of consciousness'. The texts describe 7 such abodes (e.g. A. VII, 41):

(1) "There are beings who are different in body and different in perception, such as men, some heavenly beings, and some beings living in states of suffering (s. apāya). This is the 1st abode of consciousness.

(2) "There are beings who are different in body but equal in perception, such as the first-born gods of the Brahma-world (s. deva II). This is the 2nd abode of consciousness.

(3) "There are beings who are equal in body but different in perception, such as the Radiant Gods (ābhassara-deva). This is the 3rd abode of consciousness.

(4) ''There are beings who are equal in body and equal in perception, such as the All-illuminating Gods (subhakiṇha-deva). This is the 4th abode of consciousness.

(5) "There are beings ... reborn in the sphere of boundless space. This is the 5th abode of consciousness.

(6) "There are beings ... reborn in the sphere of boundless consciousness. This is the 6th abode of consciousness.

(7) There are beings... reborn in the sphere of nothingness. This is the 7th abode of consciousness"

About the 3 last-named spheres, s. jhāna (5-7). Cf. sattāvāsa.

In D. 33 there are mentioned 4 viññāṇa-ṭṭhiti, apparently in the sense of 'bases' of consciousness, namely: corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, which in S. XXII, 53 are further explained.
-----------------------------------------

In the states may view in the term of function, like this :-

viññāṇa-kicca: 'functions of consciousness', as exercised within a process of consciousness or cognitive series (cittavīthi). In the Abhidhamma Com. and Vis.M. XIV the following functions are mentioned: rebirth (paṭisandhi), subconsciousness (bhavaṅga), advertence (āvajjana), seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, body-consciousness; recciving (sampaṭicchana), investigating (santīraṇa), determining (voṭṭhapana), impulsion (javana), registering (tadārammaṇa), dying (cuti).

A single unit of sense-perception (e.g. visual consciousness), being conditioned through a sense-organ and its corresponding object, forms in reality an extremely complex process, in which all the single phases of consciousness follow one upon another in rapid succession, while performing their respective functions, e.g.:

"As soon as a visible object has entered the range of vision, it acts on the sensitive eye-organ (cakkhu-pasāda), and conditioned thereby an excitation of the subconscious stream (bhavaṅga-sota) takes place.

"As soon, however, as subconsciousness is broken off, the functional mind-element (s. Tab. I, 70), grasping the object and breaking through the subconscious stream, performs the function of 'adverting' the mind towards the object (āvajjana).

"Immediately thereupon there arises at the eye-door, and based on the sensitive eye-organ, the eye-consciousness, while performing the function of 'seeing' (dassana).... Immediately thereafter there arises the mind-element (Tab

I, 39, 55) performing the function of 'receiving' (sampaṭicchana) the object of that consciousness....

''Immediately thereafter there arises... the mind-consciousness-element (Tab. I, 40, 41, 56), while 'investigating' (santīraṇa) the object received by the mind-element...

"Immediately thereafter there arises the functional, rootless mind-consciousness-element (Tab. I, 71), accompanied by indifference, while performing the function of 'determining' (voṭṭhapana) the object......

"Now, if the object is large, then immediately afterwards there flash forth 6 or 7 'impulsive moments' (javana-citta), constituted by one of the 8 wholesome, or 12 unwholesome, or 9 functional classes of consciousness (Tab. I, 1-8; 22-23; 72-80).

''Now, if at the end of the impulsive moments, the object at the five-sense doors is very large, and at the mind-door clear, then there arises, once or twice, one of the 8 root-accompanied, kamma-resultant classes of consciousness (Tab. I, 42-49) of the sense-sphere, or one of the 3 rootless kamma-resultant mind-consciousness-elements (Tab. I, 40, 41, 56).... Because this consciousness after the vanishing of the impulsive moments, possesses the faculty continuing with the object of the subconsciousness, taking the object of the subconsciousness as its own object, therefore it is called 'registering' (tadārarmmaṇa, lit. 'that object', or 'having that as object')" (Vis.M. XIV, 115ff).

If, however, the sense-object is weak, then it reaches merely the stage of 'impulsion' (javana), or of 'determining' (voṭṭhapana); if very weak, only an excitation ot the subconsciousness takes place.

The process of the inner or mind-consciousness, i.e. without participation of the 5 physical senses, is as follows: in the case that the mind-objeet entering the mind-door is distinct, then it passes through the stages of 'advertence at the mind-door' (manodvārāvajjana), the 'impulsive stage' and the 'registering stage', before finally sinking into the subconscious stream. - (App.: citta-vīthi).

[JakeBarkings]

The story of gandhabba :-

There was a grand mother who did the meditation with Luang Poo Mun(He was a master teacher of Thai forest tradition). She has a niece and she love her niece very much.

One day she asked Luang Poo Mun. "Why I feel like go together with her niece ? I know where she go, what she do "
Luang poo mun said. "Please observe and consider to end that feeling. If you can't end this. You will die and rebirth with your niece".

She followed that suggestion. And the day she could end her feeling, her niece had a miscarriage.

[Bwvapays]

from post #39

Respectfully l don't understand your posting,is there another example of what you write?