[monologue]

Didn't know whether to put this in General or Theravada, but since I'm asking about Theravada I figure it was most appropriate here.

I was under the impression that within Theravada Buddhism reincarnation occurs exclusively between human beings. But then I watched this video by a Theravada Buddhist, (the one who has been my primary ambassador for Buddhist concepts), who claims that a monkey and other animals could reincarnate into a human being. Is this in accordance with Theravada Buddhist beliefs?

(starts at 15:15):

http://www.youtube.com/user/Buddhist...28/htQ12Z2MV0Q

Do all Buddhists believe that a monkey could reincarnate into a human being (and other animals like cats)? Is there any type of Buddhism that is only human to human?

This vid has really thrown a wrench into my designs on possibly adopting Buddhism as a personal belief system. I find it very hard to accept that something which is 12+ million years less evolved than a human being could reincarnate into a human being, and just about impossible to accept that a cat could. Don't get me wrong, I like animals and I recognize that they have some traits that are similar to humans. But I don't think they're compatible with a human being. Animals don't have a human's psychology, emotions, and thinking; and why should a species evolve at all if it can just reincarnate as a more sophisticated species?

Now I'm all confused.

[Uninkipsyncp]

Hi Freedomfromdesire and a warm welcome to the group.

Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to look at the video you mention.

However I don't think its a good idea for newcomers to Buddhism to get sidetracked speculating about rebirth, when Buddha's core teachings for this present lifetime are far more important. Focus on those, is my brief advice for now.

Whether one might have been a monkey or not is completely irrelevant ! One aims to understand the teachings of the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path and develop practices to increase understanding and reduce suffering in this present lifetime.

With kind regards,


Aloka-D

[lammaredder]

Hello FFD

I also am not in a position to view the video because I do not have the download space at the moment. (I have heard YouTube downloads the whole video as soon as it starts playing).

But I assume it is Ajahn Brahm speaking and trying to explain where all the extra souls come from when there has been such enormous human population growth.

In the Theravada suttas, I cannot recall any teachings about animals being reborn as humans. Whilst such stories exist in the Jataka Fairy Tales for children, these are not the teachings of the Buddha himself.

The Buddha himself was primarily concerned with human beings not thinking & behaving like animals (rather than visa versa).

My advice is to try to take from Ajahn Brahm what you yourself regard has important for you.

There is no need to follow anyone blindly, no matter how kind, wise & inspiring they generally are.

Best wishes

Element



"Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons."

Lokapala Sutta: The Bright Protectors

"Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that."

A second time... A third time Punna the ox-duty ascetic asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

"Well, Punna, since I certainly cannot persuade you when I say 'Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that,' I shall therefore answer you.

3. "Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly.

Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.

Kukkuravatika Sutta: The Dog-duty Ascetic

[Diwokfkq]

"Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake.

"Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would each pull toward its own range & habitat.

The snake would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the anthill.'

The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the water.'

The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.'

The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.'

The hyena would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.'

The monkey would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.'

And when these six animals became internally exhausted, they would stand, sit, or lie down right there next to the post or stake.

In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is developed & pursued, the eye does not pull toward pleasing forms and unpleasing forms are not repellent.

The ear does not pull toward pleasing sounds...

The nose does not pull toward pleasing aromas...

The tongue does not pull toward pleasing flavors...

The body does not pull toward pleasing tactile sensations...

The intellect does not pull toward pleasing ideas and unpleasing ideas are not repellent. This, monks, is restraint.

"The 'strong post or stake' is a term for mindfulness immersed in the body.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding. We will steady it, consolidate it, and set about it properly.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Chappana Sutta: The Six Animals

[oliverlogo]

The Buddha himself was primarily concerned with human beings not thinking & behaving like animals.

But then, there is this:

The Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus:

"What do you think bhikkhus, which is more, this little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?"

"Venerable Sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is trifling. Compared to the great earth, the little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction."

"So too bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn amongst human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn in hell."

"For what reason?"

"Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths."

"Therefore bhikkhus, an effort should be made to understand: 'This is suffering, this is the origin of suffering, this is the quenching of suffering and this is the way leading to the quencing of suffering'. "

SN 56.120 So in this teaching, the Buddha has advised if a being abiding in the animal realm sees the Four Noble Truths, they can become human.

[Cigarsstoreonline]

from post #8

This is the very core of emptiness.

[apodildNoli]

So in this teaching, the Buddha has advised if a being abiding in the animal realm sees the Four Noble Truths, they can become human.

In the following YouTube (English version is not available), we can watch a superb illustration (at 6:10) of how the being Angulimala dwelling in the animal realm, by realising the Four Noble Truths, is reborn human.





And at that time in King Pasenadi's realm there was a bandit named Angulimala: brutal, bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

Angulimala Sutta: About Angulimala Interesting how the first words in the video below are: "here, a mob mentality knows no mercy..."

http://animal.discovery.com/videos/a...nting-animals/

[grosqueneen]

from post #7

and Freedomfromdesire #1

As we know change is in the nature of life. So as one living in the animal realm can be reborn in a 'good destination'.So a Deva can be reborn in the best of realms,the human realm.

§ 83. {Iti 3.34
"The human state, monks, is the devas' reckoning of going to a good destination. Having become a human being, acquiring conviction in the Dhamma-&-Vinaya taught by the Tathagata

Conversely

So it is a Deva can be reborn in the best of realms,the human realm.

§ 70. {Iti 3.21; Iti 58
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "I have seen beings who — endowed with bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct; who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — at the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

[BruceCroucshs]

FFD,
Welcome to Buddhism.
Wow you have certainly opened up many lines of thought.
Better take the whole thing slowly,
As others have advised you first sort out your understanding of the 4NT.
There's plenty of time for the other stuff.
But please keep asking questions,in Buddhism this is to be applauded
Maybe if your not too dishearten we could go into the other points you raise when you've got your mind around the basics.

.

[Poll Pitt]

Whether one might have been a monkey or not is completely irrelevant !

I personally think that FFD raises some interesting points and are worthy of consideration,maybe open up a post or two.
Ok l agree that s/he should first get some basics tucked away,but the spirit of enquiry is a good thing.

[Avaindimik]

If we can do pubbenivāsānussati. We will not confuse.

The description of Te-Vijja, Abpinna and Pubbenivasanussati from URL

------------------------------
pubbenivāsānussati: 'remembrance of former births', is one of the higher powers (abhiññā, q.v.), and a factor of threefold knowledge (tevijjā, q.v.).

------------------------------
te-vijja: 'one endowed with the threefold (higher) knowledge'. In Brahmanism means 'knower of the 3 Vedas' ( tri-vidyā), in Buddhism means one who has realised 3 kinds of knowledge, to wit: remembrance of former rebirths, the divine eye, extinction of all cankers. For details, s. abhiññā, 4-6. Cf. Tevijjā Sutta, D. 13 (WHEEL 57/58).

------------------------------
abhiññā: The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya, q.v.) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samādhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara, q.v.) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassanā, q.v.), i.e. extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya; s. āsava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness. They are: (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha), (2) divine ear (dibba-sota), (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñāṇa), (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivāsānussati), (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu), (6) extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya). The stereotype text met with in all the 4 Sutta-collections (e.g. D. 34; M. 4, 6, 77; A. III, 99; V, 23; S. XV, 9 and Pug. 271, 239) is as follows:

(1) "Now, O Bhikkhus, the monk enjoys the various magical powers (iddhi-vidha), such as being one he becomes manifold, and having become manifold he again becomes one. He appears and disappears. Without being obstructed he passes through walls and mountains, just as if through the air. In the earth he dives and rises up again, just as if in the water. He walks on water without sinking, just as if on the earth. Cross-legged he floats through the air, just like a winged bird. With his hand he touches the sun and moon, these so mighty ones, so powerful ones. Even up to the Brahma-world he has mastery over his body.

(2) "With the divine ear (dibba-sota) he hears sounds both heavenly and human, far and near.

(3) "He knows the minds of other beings (parassa ceto-pariya-ñāṇa), of other persons, by penetrating them with his own mind. He knows the greedy mind as greedy and the not-greedy one as not greedy; knows the hating mind as hating and the not-hating one as not hating; knows the deluded mind as deluded and the not-deluded one as not deluded; knows the shrunken mind and the distracted one, the developed mind and the undeveloped one, the surpassable mind and the unsurpassable one, the concentrated mind and the unconcentrated one, the freed mind and the unfreed one.

(4) "He remembers manifold former existences (pubbe-nivāsānussati), such as one birth, two, three, four and five births .... hundred thousand births; remembers many formations and dissolutions of worlds: 'There I was, such name I had .... and vanishing from there I entered into existence somewhere else .... and vanishing from there I again reappeared here.' Thus he remembers, always together with the marks and peculiarities, many a former existence .

(5) ''With the divine eye (dibba-cakkhu = yathā-kammūpaga-ñāṇa or cutūpapāta-ñāṇa), the pure one, he sees beings vanishing and reappearing, low and noble ones, beautiful and ugly ones, sees how beings are reappearing according to their deeds (s. kamma): 'These beings, indeed, followed evil ways in bodily actions, words and thoughts, insulted the noble ones, held evil views, and according to their evil views they acted. At the dissolution of their body, after death, they have appeared in lower worlds, in painful states of existence, in the world of suffering, in hell. Those other beings, however, are endowed with good action .... have appeared in happy state of existence, in a heavenly world.

(6) "Through the extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya) even in this very life he enters into the possession of deliverance of mind, deliverance through wisdom, after having himself understood and realized it.''

4-6 appear frequently under the name of the 'threefold (Higher) Knowledge' (te-vijjā, q.v.). They are, however, not a necessary condition for the attainment of sainthood (Arahatta), i.e. of the sixth abhiññā.

Vis.M. XI-XIII gives a detailed explanation of the 5 mundane higher powers, together with the method of attaining them.

In connection with the 4 kinds of progress (s. paṭipadā), abhiññā means the 'comprehension' achieved on attainment of the Paths and Fruitions.

[RooldpalApata]

from post #13

Yes of course enquiry is good, Frank....but that doesn't change my personal opinion about priorities.

[Gymngatagaica]

This is my first post ... "hi" folks!

When I first started taking lessons in Tibetan Buddhism, I was outraged at the idea that animals could be reborn as humans ... even more so that I ... precious I ... could possibly be reborn as an animal.

For me, the greatest value in these teachings has been to show me how attached I am to my "specialness". Others of you may reject these teachings for other reasons, but for me it was all about attachment.

[Kimeoffessyr]

So in this teaching, the Buddha has advised if a being abiding in the animal realm sees the Four Noble Truths, they can become human.

I think this is where the tradition comes from of reading the Dhamma to house pets and the like.
---

@OP: In any event, rebirth is a very advanced sort of topic. It is an essential discussion to have, but in general pursuing it is skipping a lot of preliminary work. Two things are important for you to know:

The first thing is that whatever the view of rebirth one has, whether for or against or with reservation, it does not affect the practice of either Satipatthana (Four Establishments of Mindfulness, for Right Mindfulness), or Anapanasati (Breath Mindfulness, for Right Concentrarion).

The second thing, following directly from the first, is that Right Mindfulness (fulfilled independent of views on rebirth) leads to Right Concentration (also fulfilled independent of views on rebirth), and these then lead to Right Knowledge (which has to do with your question about rebirth), which finally leads to Right Liberation, or Nibbana. This is the process in the Gradual Training as described by the Buddha.

Right View, way back at the beginning, is a preliminary level of Right View that gets you going on the Path, and it has to do with understanding the Four Noble Truths in a general way. Paticcasamuppada, or Dependent Co-Origination (which is where the idea of Buddhist rebirth is taught), is a later and complex teaching that is to be pursued only when one has an appropriate foundation in Right Concentration.

Hopefully it becomes clear how discussions of rebirth can easily be enticing but are actually putting the cart before the horse. The Buddha said, "Come and see," and so you should, one step on the Path at a time. Prove things to yourself according to the Noble Eightfold Path, and let things come as they may.

[YpciJQdo]

If we could not change there would no hope, would there?

In Buddhism, "hope" is generally understood to just be fear of fear - just another reaction.

[Slchtjgb]

I think this is where the tradition comes from of reading the Dhamma to house pets and the like.

For me, the best way is the study the human world and the animal world.

Below are beings dwelling in the animal realm.

Male deer with herd



Adult male Guadalupe fur seal with females and pups.

A bull elephant seal forceably mates (copulates) with a much smaller female, often biting her into submission and using his weight to keep her from fleeing. Males may up to 5000 lbs, triple the size of females. Sandy beach rookery, winter, Central California.


The head football coach at Cape Henlopen High School was arrested Thursday night and charged with raping a teenage girl, police said.

Arriving troopers found the girl in a "hysterical state" with residue of duct tape around her wrists from where Ott allegedly had "taped her hands above her head and taped them together around a pole" before sexually assaulting her, police said in court records.

http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...NEWS01/4100329

[MackBranon]

Below, via conscience & concern, sense of shame & fear of the results of bad kamma (hiri-ottappa), a being dwelling in the animal realm is reborn in the human realm.



"Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing.

If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons."

Lokapala Sutta: The Bright Protectors

[exiceJetLip]

A porn star is reborn

By Daniel A. Kusner Life+Style Editor
Feb 23, 2006

Gay adult-video legend Tom Katt reclaims Christian faith and retires from erotica. Re-emerging as David Papaleo, he identifies as straight but is sickened by right-wing Bible-thumpers who preach anti-gay hatred. Papaleo's next stop the pulpit

In the mid 1990s, Tom Katt began regularly appearing in gay porn videos. The versatile bodybuilder made at least 15 sex flicks in his first two years. Handsome and talented, he started earning a lot of money. And for what it's worth, Tom Katt became famous in the world of erotica.

Over the years, steroids and growth hormones augmented his physique. Cocaine and pot made the good times seem happier, but the party train kept crashing. Inside, he felt something was missing. And in 2003, he walked away from the biz. Katt, who now goes by his birth name, David Papaleo, had found God.

http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/pu...ticle_1317.php



Shelley Lubben (previously known as "Roxy", born May 18, 1968 in Pasadena, California) is a former United States pornographic actress from the 90's and a Born Again Christian.

[mirex]

Good examples, thanks Element

[DJElizardo]

Hi Freedomfromdesire and a warm welcome to the group.

Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to look at the video you mention.

However I don't think its a good idea for newcomers to Buddhism to get sidetracked speculating about rebirth, when Buddha's core teachings for this present lifetime are far more important. Focus on those, is my brief advice for now.

Whether one might have been a monkey or not is completely irrelevant ! One aims to understand the teachings of the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path and develop practices to increase understanding and reduce suffering in this present lifetime.

With kind regards,


Aloka-D

Well doesn't the 4NT and the 8FP hinge on the belief of reincarnation?