[mealiusarses]

Thought it would be interesting to post it here...

The Buddha makes it quite clear that 'meditation' is not the way to enlightenment. Consider this passage from MN 52:

"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters1 — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world."

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....052.than.html

What this passage is really saying, is that the monk understands that jhana practice just constructs a fabricated mental state. But nibbana is the unconstructed, the not-fabricated. How can you get to the unconstructed by making further constructions? You can't! So this monk gives up on the jhanas. He looks for another way, and finds it. He finds the noble eightfold path. This leads to the ending of the mental fermentations (asava's), which is enlightenment.

So the Buddha makes it perfectly clear that the jhana's have nothing to do with the real path to enlightenment. They are in fact 'wrong concentration' a factor of the 'wrong eightfold path'. This is the path which puthujjana monks are on ( ie. the majority of monks). Only noble disciples (ariya savaka's) are on the noble eightfold path.[/quote]

What do you think my learned friends?

[new-nickname-zanovo]

from post #1

Think it was Ajaan Chah who said that if sitting lead to Enlightenment all chickens would be Enlightened.
Of course maybe they are.

[buIf6yoW]

It doesn't singularly lead to awakening, but it does contribute to creating conditions that enable us to wake up.

[MaigicyuNinia]

from post #3

True Pink dear,

It settles our mind, bring us awarness, masters the mind wich in Zen is called to "Tame the Bull" and brings the conditions for enlightenment, sets the conditions for the "Right View" and brings us to the here and now...

[leflyCode]

Nibbana is conditioned, so we need to cause those conditions to grow, per Right Effort. To this end we are called on to perform Right Mindfulness (sammasati) and Right Concentration (sammasamadhi).

This is important: the jhanas are conditioned, but 'conditioned' is not an invariably bad word in Buddhism, and the jhanas are always listed as an essential part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Anyone who would declare jhanas to be empty and thereby not pursue them is missing out on the fact that various jhanas are, per the Suttas, required attainments for once-returners, non-returners, and arahants.

[SaamanthaSterlyng]

I also think that meditation is certainly a contributing factor for the majority of us. Especially in these times where our minds are so scattered and where we have many attachments and delusions, and self clinging.

Meditation is a contributing cause, though there are others also. Following the 8 fold path, practicing the 6 paramita's, aspiring to great bodhicitta, or whatever your practice may be, helps to accumulate merit which is absolutely necessary as well.

I think it is important to consider the different conditions of those now and those in the time of Shakyamuni Buddha also.

Mani

[gugqgbyzlp]

Meditation is a contributing cause, though there are others also. Following the 8 fold path, practicing the 6 paramita's, aspiring to great bodhicitta, or whatever your practice may be, helps to accumulate merit which is absolutely necessary as well.

Yes, very true Mani, and also I feel that meditation can help to have a better practice of those and other teachings.

[VZF74G0M]

There are 3 kinds of status during practice the meditation. For example :-

From Path to Enlightenment II
URL

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6.7.1 Contemplation of breathing: If during contemplation of breathing one is absorbed and mindless, it is unacceptable. If one gazes at an object until consciousness is firmly fixed to the breath, it is concentration (samatha) practice. If it is mindful of the body and mind and consciousness is a knower that is separate from the known object, then it is insight (vipassanā) practice on the foundation of body. If during breathing consciousness is abstracted and mindfulness recollects it, if consciousness unknowingly gazes at breathing and mindfulness recollects it, if consciousness is happy, unhappy or indifferent and mindfulness recollects it, and if consciousness is moral or immoral and mindfulness recollects it, then these are exercises in mindfulness of the condition of Mind. They are stepping stones to mindfulness practice towards insight development on the foundation of Mind.
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If we don't know which kind is arising and we cling to only one kind. This is unwholesome and does not lead to Enlightenment.

[mpegdvdclip]

from post #9

Thanks for the link,very good,very clear.