[+++Poguru+++]

from post #19

Right View is the forerunner, but Right Mindfulness involves Right View through Right Livelihood, as the Sutta plainly shows.

Continuing with the topic.

Never left! We're exploring how to define sammasati as a tangent off of the two Suttas this thread is about.

[Muhabsssa]

Right View is the forerunner, but Right Mindfulness involves Right View through Right Livelihood, as the Sutta plainly shows.

So? What actually are you trying to say?

Please note each factor has right view.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right livelihood.

[Tusethede]

So? What actually are you trying to say?

Simply this:

Right Mindfulness involves Right View through Right Livelihood

Shown thusly:

from post #18

This is in response to:

right mindfulness is maintaining right view in the mind

...which, while true, is not the whole story.

[Fertassa]

Continuing with the topic, we move to the third satipatthana.

Here, the SS is again teaching basic awareness of mind. It is teaching whatever the state of the mind, know it.

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released. Where as the AS describes a purification of mind, occuring after rapture & happiness cease.

Here, the residual defilements of mind are cleansed, then concentration (one-pointedness) is cleansed, until the mind remains liberated & open, ready for the work of full scale vipassana.

On the level of attainment concentration, this liberation of mind concurs with the fourth jhana, where one-pointedness has ceased and only equinimity & mindfulness remain.

(9) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe out.

(10) He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe out.

(11) He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe out.

(12) He trains himself: liberating the mind I shall breathe in.

[unmalryAlalry]

which, while true, is not the whole story.

It is best to acknowledge when we are incorrect.

The sutta states thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right livelihood.

Right view is the forerunner. It is there with each path factor.

[worldofwarcraft]

Continuing with the topic, we move to the fourth satipatthana, here it becomes bizarre, obviously the SS not spoken by the Buddha .

The SS includes various meditation objects in the fourth satipatthana, including the five hindrances.

The SS translators call the fourth "contemplation of mind objects" where in the AS, it is contemplation of supreme truth.

Here, unlike the SS, none of the five aggregate (such as body, feelings, mental states, etc,) are specifically mentioned as the objects of meditation.

This is because the object of meditation is change itself. Impermanence is the object of meditation.

This occurs because at this stage of the practise, the impermanence is happening so fast (but not that fast), that the impermanence is the experience of mind (rather than say the breathe or feeling which is impermanent).

[(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out.

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out.

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out.

Bhikkhus, this is how Anapanasati that one has developed and made much of has great fruit and great benefit.

[PeterPatrickJohn]

Right view is the forerunner. It is there with each path factor.

We don't actually disagree, I think. Right View is everywhere in the Noble Eightfold Path. It comprises an aspect of every step beyond itself, such that Right Intention... Right Samadhi... Right Liberation has Right View as forerunner and chief. We both agree with this.

I'm simply saying that the practice of Right Mindfulness includes more than just Right View, which seems to be what you are claiming. Not even the Anapanasati Sutta claims such a thing.

[DoterrFor]

This is very inconsistent. Can you explain this?

Theory does not help. Method helps.

One must distinguish between theory and method.

When the SS and AS say to contemplate body, feelings, mind, etc, this is theory.

When it is stated there are four jhanas, this is theory rather than method.

When it is said vipassana directly see the three characteristics, this is theory rather than method.

Method places the mind in a state to reach the sign post of jhana and to experience vipassana.

When Bahiya was advised to merely see, merely hear, merely cognise, this is method.

When the Buddha advised craving is to be abandoned, this is method.

When the Buddha advised right concentration has relinquishment as its sole object, this is method.

In short, MN 117 is method not theory.

[BreeveKambmak]

I'm simply saying that the practice of Right Mindfulness includes more than just Right View, which seems to be what you are claiming. Not even the Anapanasati Sutta claims such a thing.

The Anapanasati Sutta discusses experiencing sixteen things.

The term for experiencing is not "sati".

Sati is something else.

We must comprehend the statement "thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around" the path factors.

Most think mindfulness is contemplating or experiencing an object or watching slow motion bodily movements.