[abouthotels]

i'm a bit confused. are there comparisons that can be made between the two suttas? thanks.

[Beauseaccerce]

A lot.

They are really two different suttas.

One is a collection of disconnected practises.

The other describes unfolding of experience when the mind is established in right mindfulness, one after eachother, in sequence, the flow of the stream.

Try to compare, for example, how the factors of enlightenment are described in each sutta.

In one sutta they are merely listed and in the other sutta they flow into each other, one being the foundation for the next.

Kind regards

[Arrectiff]

The Satipatthana Sutta describes Right Mindfulness, and Anapanasati shows how that foundation springboards you into Right Concentration.

The confusion is a result of textual redactions. Take note that in the Majjhima Nikaya, the Anapanasati Sutta is followed by the Kayagatasati Sutta, forming a pair of mindfulness practices: one for the breath, one for the body. Each of these fulfills the Satipatthana requisites of Body, Feeling, Mind, and Construct mindfulness. Ultimately a bhikkhu/ni will live life according to breath sati when seated, body sati when in motion, and in this way the jhanas will arise to begin fulfilling Right Concentration.

But the Satipatthana Sutta itself is more of a template than an actual practice. It is there to be used as a check to see whether a practice is in accord with Right Mindfulness or not. (The Digha Nikaya has the Mahasatipatthana Sutta for this purpose, which is just the Satipatthana Sutta from MN plus the Four Noble Truths.)

The Samyutta Nikaya, however, offers an entire series on these topics: the Satipatthana Samyutta, the Anapanasamyutta, and the Jhanasamyutta. I highly recommend reading these sections of SN to broaden ones understanding of what's in the Majjhima (and Digha) Nikaya on Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.

The MN and DN Suttas I've just talked about are almost wholly summary pieces; it's a little like trying to grok a book by only reading Cliff's Notes. In this case, SN offers the greater detail. One further thing is that anapanasati is Right Mindfulness, not Right Concentration - only the jhanas are Right Concentration.

[pavilionnotebook]

The Satipatthana Sutta describes Right Mindfulness, and Anapanasati shows how that foundation springboards you into Right Concentration.

I disagree. MN 117 describes right mindfulness. For advanced practise, the SS is essentially useless.

The confusion is a result of textual redactions. Take note that in the Majjhima Nikaya, the Anapanasati Sutta is followed by the Kayagatasati Sutta, forming a pair of mindfulness practices: one for the breath, one for the body. Each of these fulfills the Satipatthana requisites of Body, Feeling, Mind, and Construct mindfulness. Ultimately a bhikkhu/ni will live life according to breath sati when seated, body sati when in motion, and in this way the jhanas will arise to begin fulfilling Right Concentration.

I disagree. There is no difference between the common parts of the AS and the KS. The KS like the SS is just a list of disconnected practises and dhammas. Also, one needs to keep in mind the Buddha said in the AS that the breathing in & out is a body (kaya) amongst bodies (kaya).

The breathing in & out (kaya) is not something spiritually separate from the physical body (kaya). They are inherently interrelated. The breathing in & out is the kayasankhara (body conditioner). This is why the third experience of the AS (and the KS and SS) is experiencing all bodies (sabbakaya).

Most translators use the term "the whole body". Naturally, they are wrong. The word sabba or sabbe means "all" and not "whole".

The KS like the SS has no relationship to the AS. The AS is complete in itself and requires no input from the KS or the SS.

The AS is a complete, whole & dhammically integrated sutta, which is its beauty, like the the 4NTs, 8FP or DO are integrated teachings. The AS was definitely spoken by the Buddha whilst the SS was probably compiled after the Buddha's death, a compilation of various teachings he gave.

But the Satipatthana Sutta itself is more of a template than an actual practice. It is there to be used as a check to see whether a practice is in accord with Right Mindfulness or not.

I disagree. The SS is just a list of dhammas. It is not really a template but I agree it is not actual practise (althought it has those nice paragraphs on insight, ie, arising & vanishing).

The Samyutta Nikaya, however, offers an entire series on these topics: the Satipatthana Samyutta, the Anapanasamyutta, and the Jhanasamyutta. I highly recommend reading these sections of SN to broaden ones understanding of what's in the Majjhima (and Digha) Nikaya on Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.

I disagree. The essential sutta to study is MN 117, which forms a set with the AS (MN 118), just as MN 9 forms a set with the SS (MN 10). MN 117 describes what right mindfulness is and what the noble (supramundane) right concentration is.

There is no benefit in reading about jhanas when the subtle method of attainment is not understood. MN 117 is the subtle method.

The MN and DN Suttas I've just talked about are almost wholly summary pieces; it's a little like trying to grok a book by only reading Cliff's Notes. In this case, SN offers the greater detail. One further thing is that anapanasati is Right Mindfulness, not Right Concentration - only the jhanas are Right Concentration.

I disagree again. The AS does not describe the jhanas in detail. But it does describe rapture & happiness, which are the factors of jhana.

Each of the 14 AS experiences begin with the words: "he trains himself", which means fully equipped with & engaged in the three trainings of the Noble EightFold Path, namely, morality, concentration & wisdom.

MN 117 describes what is the Noble Right Concentration required to fulfil Anapanasati.

SN 49.9 most beneficially describes right concentration is "one pointedness of mind with release (relinquishment, non-attachment) its sole object".

In short, the SS, KS and DN are for when MN 117 and SN 49.9 are not mastered and stream entry is not established.

The AS describes the stream of supramundane practice.

Kind regards

[pharmacologist30]

The Samyutta Nikaya, however, offers an entire series on these topics: the Satipatthana Samyutta, the Anapanasamyutta, and the Jhanasamyutta. I highly recommend reading these sections of SN to broaden ones understanding of what's in the Majjhima (and Digha) Nikaya on Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.

I disagree.

With what? I said there are three samyuttas in the Samyutta Nikaya directly related to what we're talking about, which is a brute fact.

The only other thing in there is a recommendation to expose oneself to what the entire Canon has to say on the subject, and you're saying that you 'disagree'.



The rest of the post is kind of a mess, so I'll take those issues individually as they come up in the rest of this discussion.

In any event, inji, I hope this exchange has offered you some answers, and perhaps sparked new questions?

[BadbarmrapBef]

With what? I said there are three samyuttas in the Samyutta Nikaya directly related to what we're talking about, which is a brute fact.

Just more scholarly study. Reading the Jhanasamyutta will not help one reach the sign post of jhana.

Reading the SN will not help anyone or anything. Just more ideas & discursiveness.

MN 117 is the essential sutta to learn about right mindfulness.

In the AS, the Buddha said:

I don't say that there is mindfulness with in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no clear comprehension... In short, the AS is for stream enterers. The SS and KS are for putthujanas who struggle to take the great leap into full scale letting go & abandonment.

[Bounce]

Ultimately a bhikkhu/ni will live life according to breath sati when seated, body sati when in motion, and in this way the jhanas will arise to begin fulfilling Right Concentration.

Now this is what I call a mess.

Neither breath nor body bring jhana.

Right view brings jhana. Abandonment brings jhana. Ultimately, a ariyan bhikkhu has non-attachment towards the five aggregates as his sole object. This brings jhana.

All of the robotic practises of 'lifting', 'walking', 'turning', etc, cannot bring jhana. The mind is too rigid and stiff. For jhana, the mind needs to be fluid.

The robot practises block the stream rather than promote its flow.

Bhikkhus practise awareness of body movements so they look good in public, just like models practise walking with deportment.

Have you ever noticed how a good bhikkhu walks like a model on a catwalk?

When one wears a wrap around orange sarong, one must walk with a certain deportment so it remains on the body.

It is a little like when women wear strapless dresses that are just held up by their breast protusion.

They must walk & move with care, otherwise all is exposed.

[fluistulkn]

Samyutta Nikaya

If we study this, we will read the Buddha brutely advised his monks if ever they are asked in which dwelling he abides during his retreats, they are to say: "Anapanasati is the dwelling of the Tathagata".

[Gudronich]

But the Satipatthana Sutta itself is more of a template than an actual practice. It is there to be used as a check to see whether a practice is in accord with Right Mindfulness or not.

No. It is the opposite.

The AS lists two preliminaries and fourteen sign posts of right mindfulness, the last of which are concerned with Nibbana.

The SS is just a disjointed list. For example, the five hindrances are included in the fourth satipatthana.

Now how could anything be more silly and messy than that?

How can any clear seeing of anything occur when the five hindrances are in the mind?

In the AS, if the five hindrances are not overcome, practise does not even start let alone reach the fourth tetrad/satipattthana.

Sobeh, please do not forget,as the Buddha advised in the AS:

I do not say that there is mindfulness with in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no clear comprehension...

[nitivearchit]

The MN and DN Suttas I've just talked about are almost wholly summary pieces; it's a little like trying to grok a book by only reading Cliff's Notes. In this case, SN offers the greater detail.

Non-sense.

One can enter the stream of Anapanasati via hearing one sentence of dhamma.

Only two suttas are required, namely, MN 117 and MN 118.

The first offers the method and the second offers the map.

Bahiya Sutta is also useful for method.

No need to spend $200 on two dhamma books.

One could die before finishing reading those two books.

[VrQsgM7c]

Anyway, inji, have a look at A History of Mindfulness, which you can read here as a pdf. It is a solid piece of analysis on the Satipatthana Sutta, and may be interesting to you.

[HotboTgameR]

thank you, both. the exchange was helpful, enjoyable and broadening.

[DOWNLOADnowADOBEphotoSHOP]

thank you, both. the exchange was helpful, enjoyable and broadening.

I will be continuing my analysis. Stay tuned.

[dayclaccikere]

SN 47.5 in the Satipatthanasamyutta states the five hindrances are the heap of the unwholesome and the four establishments of mindfulness are the heap of the wholesome.

The Satipatthana Sutta states:
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.) These two suttas show the Satipatthana Sutta and the Satipatthanasamyutta are designed for developing "self-awareness".

In the Satipatthanasamyutta, there are many teachings for junior monks.

In the Satipatthanasamyutta, there are many metaphorical stories or parables such as the Sakunagghi Sutta, Makkata Sutta, The Beauty Queen, etc, taught to exhort looking inwards rather than looking outwards.

So, as I suggested, the Satipatthana Sutta is a beginners level sutta, designed for new meditators to develop "self-awareness".

[anenselog]

The Anapanasati Sutta is much more subtle.

The Anapanasati Sutta states it brings the seven factors for awakening to their fulfilment.

It states a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

It states a monk develops the other factors of awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

So here, the qualities that are listed at the end of the sixteen steps are also there at the beginning, namely, dispassion (viraga), cessation (nirodha), relinquishment (vossaga) plus seclusion (viveka).

Bhikkhu Bodhi explains in note 48 of his MN, "the use in this context signifies that the development of the enlightenment factors is directed to Nibbana as its goal during the preparatory stages of the path and as its object with the attainment of the supramundane paths".

As I mentioned earlier from SN 48.9, right concentration makes relinquishment (vossaga) its sole object.

As advised in MN 117, right mindfulness is maintaining right view in the mind. Right view is the Four Noble Truths, the abandoning of craving.

Nirodha is the abandoning of craving, as exhorted in the 3rd Noble Truth.

In short, the inclusion of these "abandonment dhammas" of seclusion, dispassion, cessation and relinquishment as preliminary requisites shows the Anapanasati Sutta is a much more subtle and advanced sutta.

The SS is learning to swim. The AS is diving into the stream.

kind regards

[mirzaterak]

Also, as I said earlier, the SS is a list of disconnected meditation objects, lacking in coherence.

However, the AS is integrated, a gradual teaching.

The AS does not separate Anapanasati from Satipatthana.

The AS asks:

"Now how is mindfulness with in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?

"And how is mindfulness with in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four foundations of mindfulness to their culmination?

"And how are the four foundations of mindfulness developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination?

"And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? In short, the AS is the expression of the path, from beginning to end.

[Peretool]

Reading the SN will not help anyone or anything. Just more ideas & discursiveness.

But then:

These two suttas show the Satipatthana Sutta and the Satipatthanasamyutta are designed for developing "self-awareness"... In the Satipatthanasamyutta, there are many teachings for junior monks... In the Satipatthanasamyutta, there are many metaphorical stories or parables such as the Sakunagghi Sutta, Makkata Sutta, The Beauty Queen, etc, taught to exhort looking inwards rather than looking outwards.

This is very inconsistent. Can you explain this? In your view, is reading the Samyutta Nikaya useful, or isn't it?

One further clarification from you would be nice:

"self-awareness"

Now, I would have said that the Suttas in post #14 were for the development of mindfulness (Pali: sati); do you intend this Pali term, or another Pali term, or no Pali term at all, when you write "self-awareness"?

[Aozenee]

As advised in MN 117, right mindfulness is maintaining right view in the mind.

Incomplete; here is why:

MN 117 - The Great Forty

9. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong view and to enter upon right view: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong view, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right view: this is one's right mindfulness."

So far so good... but you're culling too much. Read the next sections, Element:

15. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong intention and to enter upon right intention: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong intention, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right intention: this is one's right mindfulness."

21. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong speech and to enter upon right speech: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong speech, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right speech: this is one's right mindfulness."

27. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong action and to enter upon right action: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong action, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right action: this is one's right mindfulness."

33. "One makes an effort to abandon wrong livelihood and to enter upon right livelihood: this is one's right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong livelihood, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right livelihood: this is one's right mindfulness."

(Section 35 then describes, in sum, how Right View is the cause and condition which leads on to Right Intention and thereby through the Noble Eightfold Path all the way to the ninth and tenth steps of the gradual training, Right Knowledge and Right Liberation.)

As can be seen from these sections {9, 15, 21, 27, & 33}, Right Mindfulness is, in fact, all steps from Right View through Right Livelihood, and not, as you say, merely maintaining Right View alone.

[weightpillsnow]

As can be seen from these sections {9, 15, 21, 27, & 33}, Right Mindfulness is, in fact, all steps from Right View through Right Livelihood, and not, as you say, merely maintaining Right View alone.

The sutta states:

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten. The arising of all path factors depends on right view.

Also, understanding theory is based on actual practise.

[KixdricyArrip]

are there comparisons that can be made between the two suttas?

Continuing with the topic, we move to the second satipatthana.

In the SS, the second satipatthana is concerned with all feelings, which is simply basic awareness practise.

And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns that he is feeling a painful feeling. When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns that he is feeling a pleasant feeling. When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns that he is feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. In the AS, the second satipatthana is only concerned with pleasant feelings, which on the higher level of attainment concentration are factors of jhana. For the stream enterer, they similarly arise but only on the level of neighbourhood concentration.

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in experiencing rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out experiencing rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in experiencing happiness.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out experiencing happiness.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in experiencing the mind fabricator.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out experiencing the mind fabricator.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mind fabricator.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mind fabricator.' Again, this shows practise described in the AS is more advanced than in the SS.